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#404568 - 09/30/08 01:03 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: CVV]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

In goju-ryu it is not a requirement to begin and end at the same spot. I know that most shotokan groups have this rule but in goju-ryu it is not.
Take eg tensho, 3 steps forward and 4 steps back.
But goju-ryu kata do begin and end somewhere in the same circle with diameter of about 2 meter.

I agree with Unyu that this is imposed as a result of the unifomication attempts to accept Karate into the Butokukai.
Same with the kiai on fixed locations.

Look at the kobudo-kata, many never end and start in the same vincinity.




Actually positional coincidence is an okinawan thing and has nothing to do with Japanese acceptance. It is from the same theory as that of okinawan dance. In addition it is not the number of steps in a specific direction with make this theory a reality, but the intermediate movements and postures which bring it all together. As for Goju, Nagamine mentions Shuri-te and Tomari-te with no mention of Naha, so your art is not included in this discussion.

In fact, it might be benificial for those who do not follow this principle when performing kata to list the kata which don't begin and end on the same spot with in say 6 inches.
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#404569 - 09/30/08 02:55 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
off the top of my head in our Seito Matsumura the Passai Sho and Passai Dai kata end up a distance forward from where they start, about 4 ft if I recall.

our Naihanchi end up 2ft forward as we cross step at a diagional rather than cross step on the same line.

the rest, I think (I have no room to do them correctly and check right now) end up fairly close, within 6 inches.

But there is no emphasis on ending up anywhere in what we do, sometimes stances are shorter, sometimes longer, sometimes you tak a bigger step, sometimes you take a different angle, depending on who you are and what your doing.

each significantly experienced person works the art their way, messy as hell !
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#404570 - 09/30/08 03:58 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: shoshinkan]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

two questions for medulanet:
Do you have more than 1 application for kata principles?

Do you visualize an opponent when training solo kata?


The answers to those 2 questions determine if you end up in the same spot each time or not.

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#404571 - 09/30/08 06:35 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, the answer two both questions is yes and I can still end up in roughly the same spot when performing kata.
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#404572 - 09/30/08 10:11 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

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#404573 - 09/30/08 10:23 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:






Actually its pretty basic stuff Ed. So even though you are "wowed" its nothing really. Some people train kata application through solo kata performance. I guess positional coincidence means nothing to them. The funny thing is Nagamine's style teaches how to bridge the gap between kata performance and kumite(bunkai, application, etc). And it does not involve solo kata performance. That is for technique perfection/development. If you want to learn to apply your stuff for real you need a training partner. Of course if you haven't sufficiently developed your technique it won't work for you either so you need both.
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#404574 - 09/30/08 11:11 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Check your browser settings, you may have your sarcasm filter on.

Landing in the same spot during solo kata, would mean that since you imagine one of a variety of responses using the kata's principles for any given technique/sequence, then all of those response variations have exactly the same footwork?

somethings gotta be wrong there, thats not coincidence, thats dogma. Adding to Bryan's train of thought, there is a difference between demonstration kata and training kata. Many only learn the demonstration orthodox form and force the training into that, since they don't have anything else to work with and are told 'kata should never be changed'.


Since the demonstation form was popularized directly and indirectly thru Japanese influence, fitting it into geometric angles and precise vectors became the status quo - anything else was considered 'sloppy'. Not to mention hard to manage a courtyard of students in unison. Thats the modern invention Bryan was talking about before he got banned, and he is correct.

If taught to always end up where you start, then you likely learned the demonstration form and were not shown the freedom of the 'sloppy'.

However, people -say- they follow the demonstration form's body mechanics EXACTLY when they do 2-person applications of the kata...but they don't really. They just say that. I've seen a bunch of times when someone says they do the solo and 2-person with the same exact mechanics, yet when demonstrated, they aren't anything alike - in some cases even using completely different body mechanics unrecognizable to the solo counterpart. Thats when non-kata people scratch their heads and rightfully ask...why even use the solo kata if the applied technique isn't the same in practice?

and that's also how people come up with 'this kata technique has a 1001 applications' ...and then by the time they demonstrate application #3, it's veered off to lala land and isn't related to the solo mechanic.

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#404575 - 09/30/08 11:53 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Personally I think you are all trying too hard. I see a variety of training ways using kata, all of which have purpose depending on where one is at.

I find little value in 'slop', there are too many schools in every town that master that.

Not a fan of ending up in the same point, if you do you do, but there can be reason to build personal precision that concise kata performance has value.

There are no rules after all. You can use kata 100% as practiced to take someone apart, and you can perform solo kata with the opponent in mind no problem, of course the angle each technique is delivered isn't tied into one visualization.

Skill in execution is not something to be sneered at. Working to bind that skill into random response is better than sloppy practice and less capability if required.

Of course I don't see one kata execution as the goal, rather layers of execution potentials each having different purposes. I was trained that way and incorporate it into my students studies too.

But one technique is a kata, and any one technique can be delivered the same way to defeat dozens of attacks. And there are no rules that you have to follow the kata.

Kata builds movement dynamics that can transfer into any movement of choice.

Draw your lines small and you get small answers.

One choice is to do a kata such as Chinto or Seipai with utmost precisions even to ending in the same spot if desired, and then using those precise movements, stepping, turning as the weapon not the strikes or thrusts.

Kata isn't the end, it's just the beginning.
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#404576 - 10/01/08 12:18 AM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Hi Victor,

"Draw your lines small and you get small answers."

in general, and on it's own, thats a wise statement... conversely, it could be argued:

"Draw your lines too big and you get any answers."


for random instance, can a solo movement in kata that looks like an upper block, but applied as a spinning backfist? Or how about it looking like a punch in the solo kata, but interpreting it as a cresent kick? is that drawing the line wide enough?



if you think so, then all the power to you...except it wouldn't be relating the applied to the solo - rendering the solo form arbitrary.


and how can you draw lines smaller than always trying to end up where you started in kata? by the way, just curious and you may know since I think you mentioned you did some competition judging - do they take off points when a solo-kata performer doesn't end up in the same spot?

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#404577 - 10/01/08 01:54 AM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, yes, obviously I only know the "demonstration" kata and everyone who ends up in a different place everytime knows the super deadly secret oringinoo krotty. I don't know if anyone was listening, but if all of your stances are consistent most shorin kata will lead you to the place where you started within 6 inches. Now, maybe if you try to do this, and fail, then you can argue that the only reason why you are unable to is because your karate kata performance is too deadly to end up in the same place because it is illegal in your state to kill the same imaginary person more than once. The bottom line is that it is an okinawan principle taken from okinawan dance and most likely came into practice when the kata were standardized from their free form predecessors. What most on here don't seem to know is if they practice a kata which has the same techniques each time they do it they are in fact practicing the demonstration gendai version of kata. The old kata were most likely had no set techniques. So I'll leave you to your slop.

Karate is about a general technique that can fit into any attack. Ed, I mean really, just how many ways can someone attack you? You may imagine fighting female midget wrestlers one day and a Yeti the next which causes drastic differences in the execution of your kata and your stepping? I don't know, but my karate is much simpler than that. So good luck with your more than demonstration kata Ed.
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