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#404558 - 09/09/08 11:30 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Hi Med,

How do you tell...... In my case it was my instructor's guidence.




Not when you are learning Victor, but when you train on your own, leave your instructor, and investigate things for yourself. Much of the crazy crap I have seen out there is due to people who had no means of improving their karate and advancing through self study because they were so used to being spoon fed corrections and were not taught how to correct themselves. So the question is how do you know that you are STILL on the right path to proper karate technique in the absence of your instructors?
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#404559 - 09/09/08 04:39 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Hi Med,

How do you tell...... In my case it was my instructor's guidence.




Not when you are learning Victor, but when you train on your own, leave your instructor, and investigate things for yourself. Much of the crazy crap I have seen out there is due to people who had no means of improving their karate and advancing through self study because they were so used to being spoon fed corrections and were not taught how to correct themselves. So the question is how do you know that you are STILL on the right path to proper karate technique in the absence of your instructors?




If your instructor has taken the time to train you in the mechanics and function of what you are doing, this shouldn't be a question by that point. There are a million different ways to test and verify good technique, from pushing on a wall to pushing on a abdomen to two man drilling.

Basically in kata I think there are minutae that matter, and then there's minutae that most definitely don't, and good instruction I would think will give you the capabilities to understand for yourself what's important and what isn't.

While I can respect the focus on returning to the exact spot, if it were as important as you are saying it is my feeling is it would be more widespread than it is....as it is though, there are plenty of successful traditional arts that pay this concept no mind.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/09/08 04:41 PM)

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#404560 - 09/10/08 05:15 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Med,

Well for the past say 32 years I have been on my own, no longer in the presence of my instructors, almost immediately after reaching black belt.

First I came to realize I wasn't good enough, so I started watchin those who were better (including my instuctors on the rare occassions I could see them.).

Then I analyzed what was different and worked out a way to strengthen it. In my case I started with stance, and moved on from there.

Then I competed as frequently as I could, especially in empty hand and weapons kata. Forcing myself to do so before others makes you work harder.

Then I used my developing understandings to train my students, re-inforcing what I was working towards, and seeing the reflection in their own development.

This was over 30 years ago and formed my beginning on this.

I was also training with other people, many very, very good MA"s, none of who gave a durn about my Isshinryu, but I began to understand how good crossed systems of training.

The day came when my tai chi insructor explained his body alignment princples, inreasing power, technique, etc. That helped me form a greater context to both train myself and have a road map for my students to do the same.

Among other things I've become incredibly picky about very small details, igoring everyone who says such things don't matter. Today among the minimum requirements to become an instructor in my group is 15 continous years of training, enough time to know what you need.

It's a day by day, decade by decade experience.

PS, I've never worried aobut ending anyplace. I had trained for decades before I had heard Isshinryu kata could do it that way. I then played with it, understood the point, and ignored it.

I see it useful as a high level goal for pushing performance, and extraneous outside of that, IMO. IMO Kata is to learn how to use your energy in movement more efficiently. The purpose of that movement to then shift and apply at technique within any attack to disrupt the attacker.

The ending point that is the focus, the attacker lies broken on the ground. Any attacker, any time.... and if you can't use the technique studies to do that you have to train harder.


Edited by Victor Smith (09/10/08 05:20 AM)
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#404561 - 09/12/08 12:18 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Ronin1966]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

Hello Yugen83:

I was curious though about YOUR practice, your kata specifically! The theory obviously makes sense from a logistics (?) standpoint, crowded space, movement highly limited unless in perfect sync with the person behind, beside, in front of you...

Maybe

Jeff




Hey, how's it going ? In my own personal practice, this is not a point that is stressed in our training. As long as we don't end up on the other side of the dojo when the kata is complete, then it is of no consequence. I see value in it for artistic purposes and for peformance purposes, but I think that it is ultimately useless for practical application of technique. A real fight is not going to start and end in the same place, and neither is a self defense scenario, so there is not much emphasis put on it. The only time there is ever any mention of it is when we are preparing for demo's or kata tournaments and we want our kata performance to "look" perfect in every single way for the judges. We don't make a big deal out of the enbusen thing and our techniques are still nice and crisp, and we apply our techniques in kumite with surgeon like precision. So it neither helps nor hinders our skill levels, it is nothing more than a small quirk within our training.
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#404562 - 09/29/08 11:44 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
Quote:

Its a "side effect" of perfect technique execution. I don't know about other styles, but Matsubayashi is designed to end on the exact same point give or take about 6 inches. People always talk about advanced training, principles, and applications. Well, training kata correctly will help develop the advanced level of skill necessary to apply these things. Its also about having good spatial awareness. Can you perform kata blindfolded and end facing the correct way in the correct place?




The idea of ending up where you started was not a factor in toudi kata training. The advent of modernized and regimented schoolboy and then Japanized forms/karate changed this.
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#404563 - 09/30/08 12:55 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Unyu]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Really Unyu, that is interesting. From your statements I would think that your Kusanku would not begin and end in the same spot if it were done with consistent stance work. I have never seen a version of Kusanku like this. In fact the Nishime Kusanku on youtube that you say is like the one you do appears to begin and end on the same spot. If this is your "position" it may be more than a "coincidence" that Nishime's Kusanku appears to exhibit this "school boy" trait.
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#404564 - 09/30/08 04:50 AM The same spot - arguments against [Re: medulanet]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
There is an interesting point against this...

If your forms always start and end in the same place then it follows that every movement within that form follows the same angles of attack and defence. However, we all know that real life doesn't work like that and attacks can come from any angle. Forms need to be flexible enough to deal with changing attack scenarios not be so rigid that every movement is the same every time. That doesn't teach students to react effectively to what's going on around them which is surely one of the aims of form training.

Once the student has the basic form and can follow the traditional angles of the form we teach them to use those movements to react to attacks coming from other angles - ie if they are facing north then the first attack could be from East then South West etc which may not be normal angles of attack for that form. Obviously then they may not end in the same place.

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#404565 - 09/30/08 07:05 AM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: puffadder]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
In goju-ryu it is not a requirement to begin and end at the same spot. I know that most shotokan groups have this rule but in goju-ryu it is not.
Take eg tensho, 3 steps forward and 4 steps back.
But goju-ryu kata do begin and end somewhere in the same circle with diameter of about 2 meter.

I agree with Unyu that this is imposed as a result of the unifomication attempts to accept Karate into the Butokukai.
Same with the kiai on fixed locations.

Look at the kobudo-kata, many never end and start in the same vincinity.

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#404566 - 09/30/08 11:26 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Ronin1966]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Often, those kata that are designed to have you end up in the same spot will require you to take the same size steps and keep the stances consistent throughout the kata.

But not all are designed that way.

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#404567 - 09/30/08 12:48 PM Re: The same spot - arguments against [Re: puffadder]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

There is an interesting point against this...

Puffadder, if your forms always start and end in the same place then it follows that every movement within that form follows the same angles of attack and defence. However, we all know that real life doesn't work like that and attacks can come from any angle. Forms need to be flexible enough to deal with changing attack scenarios not be so rigid that every movement is the same every time. That doesn't teach students to react effectively to what's going on around them which is surely one of the aims of form training.

Once the student has the basic form and can follow the traditional angles of the form we teach them to use those movements to react to attacks coming from other angles - ie if they are facing north then the first attack could be from East then South West etc which may not be normal angles of attack for that form. Obviously then they may not end in the same place.




A couple of things. First, if you always adjust the angle of your technique when exploring bunkai you will be missing alot. What I mean is take Pinan kata. In the first movement many people assume that the attack is coming from the left side. However, that is basics training. For in close combat the attack would be coming from straight on. However, if you ajust the angle of your technique to accomodate what you believe the bunkai to be if you believe that attack is always coming from the left you will lose much of what you can do with that technique. In fact, this is how karate application is. On technique for many attacks. Of course there are small adjustments to be made in application, but drastic changes in angles on techniques is not the way to go imo.

Now, lets talk about kata training. It seems you are talking about the various training methods for kata such as variable timing/speed training and bunkai/application training with a partner. Now, I am not sure how you train application with no partner and performing the entire kata. If that is your practice what we do is worlds apart. I am pretty certain we were not talking about more advanced kata training methods. With such methods positional coincidence does not apply. Especially when you remove all of the repeating techniques in a kata to further explore its combat effectiveness. But that's another story. Other than speed/quickness training I have never seen an advanced training methods that requires performance of the entire kata.
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