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#404548 - 09/08/08 01:20 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Firstly, there are plenty of kata that don't do this as we've established...there's a reason for "yanjigo" in Goju Ryu classes lol...

Anyway, I think it's just a structural cohesion thing, much like the "I" or "H" embusen I don't think it has any martial significance, it's organizational.




Well Zach, if there are I don't practice those kata, so I really can't comment on them. And what is "yanjigo?"




If there are what?

Yanjigo is a command to move 45 degrees to approximately where you began, since alot of kata don't end in exactly the same spot. Especially relevant when a class is doing kata together.

I've never really done a side by side comparison or anything, but at least as I was taught them, most Goju kata don't end in exactly the same spot, just the ballpark. I think Saifa might, personally it was never something given alot of concern in my training.

Here:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000006


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/08/08 01:22 PM)

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#404549 - 09/08/08 04:37 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Never heard of that term before, I wonder if it is an okinawan term, or something the Japanese added to describe elements of kata. For Matsubayashi every ending step we take has meaning. Again, beginning and ending on the same spot is a side effect of proper technique. It tells you if your stance work and angles have been consistent.
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#404550 - 09/08/08 04:51 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Never heard of that term before, I wonder if it is an okinawan term, or something the Japanese added to describe elements of kata. For Matsubayashi every ending step we take has meaning. Again, beginning and ending on the same spot is a side effect of proper technique. It tells you if your stance work and angles have been consistent.




I don't see this as unreasonable, but I will point out that there are plenty of systems who do just fine placing no emphasis whatsoever on this, including plenty of Chinese ones. Whether or not you end up in the same place doesn't say anything about whether or not each step has meaning, nor does it really say anything about depth or use of application.

Again the way I learned Goju kata the only one where you end up in the same place in a precise fashion is Saifa, thena gain some Goju kata tend to be less linear and with less repetition than Shorin kata, which may account for that.

Personally I think it's a little silly to try to equate whether or not someone focuses on this as having something to do with quality of their Karate...is that what you're saying or am I reading you wrong?


As far as if the term is Japanese or Okinawan in origin, I don't know, and I don't really concern myself with that kind of thing, I can tell you it's pretty standard in some Goju classes i've been in but that's about it.

I will say that honestly it strikes me as a more Japanese-Budo type concept to be that concerned with ending up in the exact right place, it reminds me of those old "Best Karate" books with the detailed embusen drawings. However. that is simply my own personal take on it and I could be wrong. It's been years since I done any Shorin kata minus Naihachi Shodan, but it would'nt surprise me if this is just down to a difference in style.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/08/08 05:01 PM)

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#404551 - 09/08/08 05:36 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Zach, again, I don't know about Goju, I'm just talking about Nagamine's style. Its very simple. Nagamine's kata/system are designed with measuring sticks of your technique. When learned right you can correct your own technique and improve on your own at certain levels. For example if your front stance measures two feet in length and and your perform moving basics down the deck in front stance three times and end up 7 feet from where you started. Then you do it again and end up 6.5 feet from where you started. Then do it again and end up 8 feet from where you started your technique is off. Your stance length is varying when it should remain constant. The kata I practice are designed to measure this. Its not about large classes or military training, its about an okinawan method of technique development and evaluation. Its not a judgement on what you do, I'm simply explaining what I do in the style I practice. Or maybe think of it like this. Do one of your kata that do not end up in the same place. Mark where you start and where you end. Then do it again from your previous starting point. If you do not end up facing the same way in the same spot as before, your technique is off and your stance length is varying. Now, that's not necessarily an okinawan thing or a japanese thing, its a stance thing. There must be a measure of consistency in your technique for it to reliably work for you. If you are a boxer and practicing targeting and can't hit a target reliably your boxing will not work reliably.
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#404552 - 09/08/08 05:45 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Zach, again, I don't know about Goju, I'm just talking about Nagamine's style. Its very simple. Nagamine's kata/system are designed with measuring sticks of your technique. When learned right you can correct your own technique and improve on your own at certain levels. For example if your front stance measures two feet in length and and your perform moving basics down the deck in front stance three times and end up 7 feet from where you started. Then you do it again and end up 6.5 feet from where you started. Then do it again and end up 8 feet from where you started your technique is off. Your stance length is varying when it should remain constant. The kata I practice are designed to measure this. Its not about large classes or military training, its about an okinawan method of technique development and evaluation. Its not a judgement on what you do, I'm simply explaining what I do in the style I practice. Or maybe think of it like this. Do one of your kata that do not end up in the same place. Mark where you start and where you end. Then do it again from your previous starting point. If you do not end up facing the same way in the same spot as before, your technique is off and your stance length is varying. Now, that's not necessarily an okinawan thing or a japanese thing, its a stance thing. There must be a measure of consistency in your technique for it to reliably work for you. If you are a boxer and practicing targeting and can't hit a target reliably your boxing will not work reliably.




See, that all makes sense, but it works with Shorin kata more I think because so many techniques are mirrored and generally the kata very symetrical, I can respect the purpose behind it, but there are plenty of systems where one doesn't end in the exact same place. I've yet to see one however where you don't end facing the same way.

I understand the variation in stance thing, but to me you should have that down before even touching kata, that's a kihon thing that needs to be addressed by itself.

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#404553 - 09/08/08 06:27 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I understand the variation in stance thing, but to me you should have that down before even touching kata, that's a kihon thing that needs to be addressed by itself.




Exactly. In kata if you notice you are ending in the wrong place then you need to go back to kihon and fix it. So then the question is how do you tell you stances are jacked up when you do kata if there is no system in place to alert you of this possible short coming?
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#404554 - 09/08/08 06:33 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Zach,

While quite a bit out of the karate setting, Pai Lum Kuen from the Pai Lum system ends 90 degrees from the start. Back in the early 70's George Dillman used to complete with it in forms divisions.

Depending on what you call ending, Chinto kata ends 180 degrees from the opening, to have to rise and turn that 180 to complete the rei.

Similarily Chinte kata (Shotokan) requires 3 rearward bunny hops to end up at the starting point.

Those come to mind at this moment.
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#404555 - 09/08/08 06:34 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Med,

How do you tell...... In my case it was my instructor's guidence.
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#404556 - 09/08/08 06:45 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

I understand the variation in stance thing, but to me you should have that down before even touching kata, that's a kihon thing that needs to be addressed by itself.




Exactly. In kata if you notice you are ending in the wrong place then you need to go back to kihon and fix it. So then the question is how do you tell you stances are jacked up when you do kata if there is no system in place to alert you of this possible short coming?




Well the answer is your instructor will show you lol, the way I was trained with both my Goju teachers you constantly have someone showing you exactly why you should do things one way and not another by showing how to "put it in your body" and showing by application to do things a certain way...a simplistic example would be testing someone's movement from the tanden in sanchin stance, with enough of this work it becomes automatic.

I can respect what you are saying and it seems equally valid, I just don't think beginning and ending on the same spot is neccessary for good technique or kata, though obviously one should always be 'in the ballpark' in the kata was performed correctly.

For me symmetry is of way less importance than proper posture, movement etc. Someone can have a slightly longer zenkutsu or something at some certain point of Kata without it being an issue as long as it is still zenkutsu, is being used right, and the intent is understood...in fact I would argue that as someone continues to train kata goes through subtle changes like this regardless.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (09/08/08 06:55 PM)

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#404557 - 09/09/08 04:21 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Victor Smith]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
...and Victor believe me lots of Shotokan karateka have tied themselves in knots trying to explain a fighting application for the Chinte bunny hops. I also saw an explanation that they represented a supplicant wife bowing to her husband because Chinte is sometimes charaterised by the Japanese as a "woman's kata".

Ben

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