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#404538 - 09/07/08 09:23 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: shoshinkan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Jim:

"Mudra"...

Last time I checked were the exclusive "property" of the Ninja folks. Though I've also read certain koryu (bujitsu) art forms maintain them as well, but those arts are OOOOLD and deal with weapons rather than empty handed practice.

Whats the connection of a Hindu Yogic practice (Hand Mudra) within our kata???

Jeff

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#404539 - 09/07/08 09:34 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Medulant:

<<Its positional coincidence.

Sounds like your calling it a causal design to me.

<<Kata are designed to train the body evenly.

I'd buy both that sides are used, or even that both sides are definately trained... I can think of several kata that are by no means even... between left and right.

<<you should end up within about 6 inches from where you start.

Doesn't that presume left and right equality??? My left leg is not the same length as my right and combined throughout the kata... should add up.

IYO are there better/deeper reasons beyond the "basic body" level?

Jeff

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#404540 - 09/07/08 10:04 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Ronin1966]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Do YOUR kata begin & end in the identical spot? If there is a genuine function (a martial principle(s)) to this action, what do you think it might be?

Jeff




So you don't run out of R-O-O-M?

Seriously - most kata don't finish and end on exactly the same spot. But if they go to much all over the place it does limit where you can practise the kata. Generally, given the length of Okinawan/Japanese/Korean forms, returning to more or less the same place limits your overall movement to a pragmatic "footprint", particularly with T, X or + embusen.
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#404541 - 09/08/08 01:33 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Ronin1966]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Its a "side effect" of perfect technique execution. I don't know about other styles, but Matsubayashi is designed to end on the exact same point give or take about 6 inches. People always talk about advanced training, principles, and applications. Well, training kata correctly will help develop the advanced level of skill necessary to apply these things. Its also about having good spatial awareness. Can you perform kata blindfolded and end facing the correct way in the correct place?
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#404542 - 09/08/08 01:53 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Firstly, there are plenty of kata that don't do this as we've established...there's a reason for "yanjigo" in Goju Ryu classes lol...

Anyway, I think it's just a structural cohesion thing, much like the "I" or "H" embusen I don't think it has any martial significance, it's organizational.

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#404543 - 09/08/08 01:58 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Marcel's point is not without foundation: if your kata is performed correctly you'll end up on the same spot. If it isn't (ie. if you have uneven left and right stances, for instance) you'll end up "off centre".

But for me this concept is only really important for basic training. Goju katas and Chinese forms end "roughly" on the same spot. As near as I can make out, this is principally for pragmatic rather than philosophical/esoteric reasons; ie. keeping as small a "kata footprint" as possible within the constraints of the techniques being exercised.
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#404544 - 09/08/08 07:31 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Firstly, there are plenty of kata that don't do this as we've established...there's a reason for "yanjigo" in Goju Ryu classes lol...

Anyway, I think it's just a structural cohesion thing, much like the "I" or "H" embusen I don't think it has any martial significance, it's organizational.




Well Zach, if there are I don't practice those kata, so I really can't comment on them. And what is "yanjigo?"
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#404545 - 09/08/08 08:47 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Ronin1966]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

Hello Barad:

IYHO... it is an asthetics <sp.?> thing then???

Jeff




Yes, basically aesthetics IMO. I can see no practical reason for it. I can see a philosophical case for it based on kata as moving meditation (no really my thing but some see it this way) at which point completing in the same spot and maintaining symmetry (not that all kata are symmetrical by any means) is perhaps attractive if you think this is some circular Zen-like function. Personally I think it is irrelevant. But then I am just grumpy and ill-disposed to most things...

Ben

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#404546 - 09/08/08 11:43 AM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: Barad]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
Our forms begin and end in the same spot but then we join the last move onto the first move so that you can go around it as often as necessary. In practice you should be able to start and finish from any position thus not needing to alway start at the same place makes the form more functional and flexible.

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#404547 - 09/08/08 12:10 PM Re: The same spot Begin/End W-H-Y [Re: puffadder]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
I tend to see the kata as a series of defensive movements and strategies collected and summarised as a pneumonic/memory aid for various kinds of attack and response. The beginning movements are not directly connected to the end movements unless you see a kata as representing one long fight with lots of opponents so I do not see why the end position being the same as the start is of any value, although I do end up in roughly the same spot.

I agree you can start anywhere and isolate any part to look at more closely. I am not sure I like the idea of going round and round on the same kata without end though!

Ben

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