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#404517 - 08/28/08 07:12 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: xMentalxLintx]
xMentalxLintx Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 19
Janx:

Quote:

Some people will never be able to accept this. They require a teacher and they want lots of certificates and belts and whatnot.




Bingo. That's what this is about. If you spend years learning a single form, or somesuch, and someone else comes along and learns it to a passable degree in half that time without the same level of training, you (if you're one of the insecure) will take it as a personal insult... it's some kind of message to you that you wasted your time, or that he's saying you're stupid because you needed help.

Is that likely to happen? No. But these elitist sorts don't even want to take the CHANCE, so they do what they can to stop people from even trying it another way--so that there's no chance that even by some fluke someone will gain something without jumping through all the hoops.

It happens in every field. Credentialling. I should get this job because I have the necessary degree--who cares if that guy does it just as well, or better, without the formal training? I have the paper, so I win, right? So we teach each other to talk down to the guy that learns for himself, so that he'll never become a threat to us.

Too bad folks like this don't realize he was never here to threaten them. He was here to learn something that he wanted to learn, and he probably didn't think about them for even a second. Because it's not bloody always about them.

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#404518 - 08/28/08 07:58 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: xMentalxLintx]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
So...this boils down to you having an issue with people that have credentials to teach?

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#404519 - 08/28/08 08:06 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: xMentalxLintx]
DeadlyKnuckles Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 130
Loc: United States, Florida
Quote:

Janx:

Quote:

Some people will never be able to accept this. They require a teacher and they want lots of certificates and belts and whatnot.




Bingo. That's what this is about. If you spend years learning a single form, or somesuch, and someone else comes along and learns it to a passable degree in half that time without the same level of training, you (if you're one of the insecure) will take it as a personal insult... it's some kind of message to you that you wasted your time, or that he's saying you're stupid because you needed help.

Is that likely to happen? No. But these elitist sorts don't even want to take the CHANCE, so they do what they can to stop people from even trying it another way--so that there's no chance that even by some fluke someone will gain something without jumping through all the hoops.

It happens in every field. Credentialling. I should get this job because I have the necessary degree--who cares if that guy does it just as well, or better, without the formal training? I have the paper, so I win, right? So we teach each other to talk down to the guy that learns for himself, so that he'll never become a threat to us.

Too bad folks like this don't realize he was never here to threaten them. He was here to learn something that he wanted to learn, and he probably didn't think about them for even a second. Because it's not bloody always about them.



So, you believe that turning away those seeking to teach themselves is the result of some delusion of grandeur?

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#404520 - 08/29/08 04:00 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: xMentalxLintx]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I feel if you have a soild foundations that's true. But if you just copy movement of the guy's doing in the DVD and not perform know the REAL technique then if thats what you want you got it. But really most weapon movement means something if you can't use the technique except for showing the movement what good is that?

Let's use for instance the nunchuka, I know plenty of DVD trained and self trained users that can swing them well and do all kinds of pretty stuff. But ask then to hit a soild target and the chuks pops them across the hand or head. Ask them to disarm a person with stick or demo knife and they don't know how, except try to hit the hand, while swings are possible it takes practice also the angled strike covers more range. The nunchuka as we well know has trapping, non swinging one hand and two hand striking, chokes, breaks, throws and trips so its not just a swinging or blugeoning weapon. All this is in the Bunkia and a lot of times DVD training doesn't show the possibilites. I agree you could win a place in a tournament with these movement that seen in a video but thats not really learning the weapons useage.

I believe teaching yourself (w/o a base) is a farsce brought on by watching too many movies or reading too many Bruce Lee manuals wrong. What people miss is that he studied numerous Marital Arts after ATTAINING HIS BASE and then added what he thought was useful. His studies included studied with people like Ed Parker, Jhoon Ree, various Chinese masters other then WC, Savate, Muya Thai, Fillopino arts, Karate, Wrestling, Judo's Gene LaBell and western Boxing on and on. All creditaled pros that could talk the talk and walk. Legends of the MAs.

There is no easy way to do and make it work.

But again with a solid foundation, there is nothing wrong with expanding your knowledge and arsenal with Video training and a training partner.


Edited by Neko456 (08/29/08 04:11 PM)
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#404521 - 08/29/08 04:01 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: xMentalxLintx]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
xmental

Ok I tried.

Saying that people can learn "something" from DVD's is a no brainer--sure they can "something"--its just a question of what and how much...and how well.

If you want to learn to drive a car, you have to get behind the wheel....just try getting your drivers license ONLY haveing watched DVD's about driving.
Can you learn "something" about it? Sure--IF the guy that made the DVD isn't a idiot....or maybe lived in say the UK where the drving was perhaps seriously differnt---or if your in the UK-switch the example.

Go tell the next guy you interview with for a job that you have no actual hands on training nor did you take actual classes from experts in the field in collge BUT that you have watched many DVD's about the job so your perfectly qualified to do the job.

You seem really hung up on the minutia of the word "something."

"elities telling them to shove off"

Ah, did you even read my post?

Beisides since YOUR going to assume that ANYBODY that wants people to get a real teacher--for many valid reasons...why SHOULDN'T we assume that ANYBODY that tells people that they can learn from a DVD is working their OWN agenda???????

Maybe you sell DVD's and need to drum up business....maybe your trying to shoot down the people that are giving good advice about the serious limitations of DVD instuction.....maybe you got most of your training by DVD and are now trying to desperatly rationalize your lack of real training.....maybe you took your sucky DVD training to a real school and got laughed off the mat and nor rather than face hard cheese truth that you really didn't get good training by DVD your trying to pretend that its everyone ELSE that has a problem...its EVERYONE else that is an "elitist."

"Classroom setting"

Nope, people can get hurt and hurt others pretty much anywhere----in climbing were not even in a "classroom" were out on a face where you need to really know what your doing or people can get really hurt.
Im martial arts, you could be trying to use what your ahm..."learned" from your DVD to defend yourself--and it could easily fail--and you could get hurt.
You could be doing something dangeous and not even know it----seriously hurt a buddy while you guys were trying out what you saw on your DVD.

BTW I very much DO "care" about people getting hurt---you have never met me, don't know me at all, but since I disagree with you POV I MUST be a bad guy that does not care about people...sheesh.

"Only option avalible"

Yeah, I hear that alot...and most of the time its really just a rationalization....there is training avalible if your willing to make an effort.

I have a buddy that spends 2 weekends a month making a nearly 500 mile trip just to train.
People change up their whol elives just to go to Japan, China, etc just to train....people work 2 jobs, some people could make a crap load more money doing something else but they could not train so they stick with the boring dead end job--FOR NOW
I have a buddy that used to get off work at 6:00 and make a 2 hour drive just to train with the one the experts of his system---train until 10 or so then make a 2 hour trip back---and I needed to be a work at 7:00 the next day--I'd do this 2-3 sometime 4 times a week for 5-6 YEARS.

Most of the time there is training IF you want their to be.

In those few cases where there is not? Tough call, what I often tell people is that they need to focus on really getting shape so they will be ready when they move someplace where they can get training.

If they are really stuck then they should join a group with a buddy where the can travel to train as often as possible--and practice what they learned in-between sessions.....I know of people in Canada that only make the training sessions 6 times a year....takes longer to get ahead but they seem to feel its worth it.

If you have NO other option than DVD's...and there are such people....then IMO you do what you have do...BUT SAY THAT AND SIMPLY ACPEPPT that its not a good being there and getting real teaching....don't give a lot of post-hoc rationaliztions about it somehow being just as good.

Sounds like your selling something...either to others or maybe yourself...or both.

"without the book/dvd theyed have never bothered to go seek instuctiuon"

Where is that written that all students ONLY seek out training from reading books and seeing DVD's?
That makes no sense at all---everytime some new martial arts movie comes out people get swarmed with people---people whom generally quit because the movie and the training didn't match.
Hell, talk to the folks that survived the Teenage Mutant Ninja crazy of the late 80's.

Like I said, most of the time the books and DVD;s don't match what people are doing anyway---so we gotta UNTEACH a student that resents us for it--and not only does it take longer to unteach a student--they genrally quit more often--so its a waste of time all around.

"We can only gain by helping these people"

And in my opinion we help them BEST by advocating quality "hands on" insturction from experienced teachers......not telling people that they can and should learn from books and DVD's.
IMO we help them best by helping people to make informed choices.
IMO we help them best by being honest with the serious limitations of using books and DVD's as "stand-ins" for proper instruction.
IMO we help them best by helping them to understand that although "something" can be gleaned from books and DVD's they are NOT acceptible subsitutes for actual hands on training.....indeed they can often be quite detrimental to it.

We, IMO, help them best by being HONEST with them.....even if some of them don't like hearing it.

Ask yourself whom your "really" trying to help---potential students or yourself????


Edited by cxt (08/29/08 04:15 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#404522 - 09/05/08 05:08 AM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: cxt]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I've learned a couple of things through books or dvd's,but only after having a good base already.

I don't believe it's the wise approach,but you can learn something. You also have a greater chance of learning things wrong and then you have to unlearn it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#404523 - 09/10/08 11:17 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: BrianS]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

I've learned a couple of things through books or dvd's,but only after having a good base already.

I don't believe it's the wise approach,but you can learn something. You also have a greater chance of learning things wrong and then you have to unlearn it.




I agree with you, Brian. You will build lots of bad habits by learning from a book or dvd at the beginning. If you have a base and have recieved years of live instruction, then books and/or dvd's can be helpful. However, it is an unwise route to go if starting from scratch.
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Locked, cocked, and ready to rock!

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#404524 - 09/11/08 12:20 AM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: xMentalxLintx]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

Even as a music educator, I can admit that there are plenty of self-taught musicians that are phenomenal, world-class performers. Does that mean my job is unnecessary? Of course not--not everyone has the time or desire to self-teach, and some people want to be part of a larger community of musicians and should thus learn the standardized language. Does it mean that my students are bad musicians because they "needed" a teacher and this other guy didn't? Not at all.

But THAT is usually what happens here. Someone with years of instruction is INSULTED that someone else wants to take the "shortcut," or (let's be honest) simply doesn't have the option (time, money, availability) of true instruction.

Is the would-be learner here to insult them? Not in the least. He's here because he has no option, but he wants to learn (and being a conscientious learner is just as important as having an expert teacher), his options are slim, and he wants opinions on the best way HE can do it. And let's face it, a book or DVD =is= better than no help at all.




I don't think that it is impossible to learn from a book or dvd. I just think that it is not the best way to go for a beginner. Now, martial arts is not rocket science and it is not something so far beyond the average human being that it can't be learned without an instructor. Heck, it is all physics, body mechanics, and geometry. However, I believe that learning from a live instructor is a far more efficient means, especially for a beginner. I understand that not everybody has the luxury of being able to learn from a live instructor, and for these people, this is all that they've got. I actually admire the fact that they are so passionate about the arts that they are out there making something happen even if the common means is out of reach. That speaks volumes about their dedication and character, IMO. I personally have nothing against home study students. I don't insult them or their training. I encourage them in their training and I actually try to help them find live instruction when I can. As far as sour grapes, well, there are a lot of people who poured a lot of time and money into commercial martial arts schools and they feel that since they did it then everybody else must do it, too. If somebody does things differently then they are "cheating" or they are doing it "wrong", according to them. Yes, it is a very narrowminded and ignorant viewpoint. There are lots of people who train in commercial schools, pay high prices, and still recieve crappy instruction (not to mention the other nonsense that they must put up with from the other students). They are often no better than the worst home study students, the only difference is that they did it the "right" way and payed loads of cash to help some person pay the rent on their building. In my very humble opinion, you haven't truly learned anything until you can make it work full contact against a fully resisting opponent who is trying to knock your block off just as hard as you are trying to knock theirs off, and you can free spar in your own backyard to do this, for crying out loud! The baddest fighters in the world learned how to do it on the streets without an instructor - they learned from experience, which is yet another way to learn that is different from the "right" way. I don't recommend anybody doing home study or learning from books/dvd, but if it is all that you've got and you are truly serious about training then do what you gotta do. Just be sure to pressure test it against a live opponent so that you can recieve hands-on training and valuable feedback. Most programs also allow you to correspond directly with the instructor or actually go out to where the instructor is to get some live training with him/her whenever you get the time. the key is having an open mind and respecting what others do even if it is different from what you do. If they truly are "wrong" then they will find out first hand.
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#404525 - 02/11/09 06:42 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: Yugen83]
Triddle Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 129
Loc: Australia
I think a perfect example of how it is possible to teach oneself using a variety of texts is found in looking at western (weapons based) martial arts. In the last 20 years or so these have seen a revival, going from being thought essentially non-existant to being very complete systems of armed combat. These people taught themselves mostly by looking at centuries old manuscripts and 'figuring it out' over years. There are a lot of very high quality swordsmen (and axemen/spearmen, whatever) that have learned in this manner, easily as good as their more formally trained japanese/chinese style counterparts. The historical fencing guys for example are extremely good, then there's various organisations like dagohir groups, things like ARMA and the SCA. These groups all include a lot of people who have a lot of skill, yet many of these people were either self taught or taught by someone who was self taught. Its a matter of time and effort, people dedicated their lives to reviving WMA and as far as I can see they've been quite sucessful. Also note, this is an outsiders observations... I like to collect swords and do a little backyard cutting, which is mostly how I got my exposure to WMA, but I'm no swordsman and no member of any WMA group.

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#404526 - 04/20/09 02:15 PM Re: The Circular Logic of Self Instruction... [Re: Triddle]
JLeeT Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 1
I have taken a total of a handful of years of martial arts, more specifically Sanshinkai Karate, here in Raleigh, NC. I guess it would be what is considered here as "McKarate" by some of the standards I am envisioning here based on this topic alone. I have taken enough of this that I can (and have) defend myself from an attacker with very little struggle involved. But I am by no means a "master" of any kind or type. I actually prefer to be a thought of as a "student" because I am always trying to learn more, not necessarily practice more, but learn none the less. "No one man is a master at anything, as they can always learn something more."

The problem I have run into is that I have physical and economic limitations that prevent me from sticking with it for extended periods of time. It's hard paying $125 a month for lessons by an instructor I have known for almost 20 years, and have seen his kids born, and grow up into students, teachers, and college students. Especially considering how hard finding a job is these days in any field. So I have been forced to drop out of taking the lessons for a 3rd time in my life because of something getting in the way (as life often does).

So, to make up for this, I train on my own as much as I can, and as much as I can afford. I swim in a public indoor pool for exercise and conditioning. I study and practice the katas I know on my own, along with anything I have picked up from being around this dojo's students for so long. I know the basics of weapon combat, but only the basics. I would love to learn how to use tonfa, but I am very picky in the sense that I want two very specific sets of tonfa (one of which would HAVE to be custom made).
I have been in one tournament during my stint in this art, and I really didn't enjoy it. I nabbed a gold and a silver ranking amongst my peers in two separate events. But both felt hollow because, to me, it seemed like having tournaments kind of defeats the real purpose of martial arts (as I was taught it, to defend, no exceptions). I have witnessed much elitism amongst the many people I have met during this time, and it disgusts me. I don't deny that it is a lifetime of challenges for those who stick with this type of path throughout their many years.

Ultimately, I can't see myself becoming any "high ranking" member of the art in my lifetime. But, that's okay with me as I know enough to protect myself and my loved ones if need be, and I am happy with that.


Throughout all of my experiences, it (and I can't stress this enough) FEELS like the problem exists in how the art is taught in this country. To be fair, I have no personal experience to compare this to (for other countries), so I could be wrong, but the point is the impression one gets from "those in charge" or "higher ups" of these concepts.

I have been up against black belts that can introduce the floor to me, and sure they have worked hard to get where they are, and they deserve it! I do not deny that. But if a black belt acts like a white belt, then he is color blind!

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