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#402993 - 07/23/08 02:12 PM Illegal advertising
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
This is from FA's website, under the terms and conditions:
Quote:


By use of this site you expressly agree that the exclusive jurisdiction of any dispute with FightingArts.com is in the federal or state courts located in the State of New York, County of New York. The terms of use applicable to FightingArts.com are governed by the laws of the State of New York without regard to its conflict of laws principles.





well, in New York state, it's illegal to sell some of the items FA is sponsoring ad space for.


From: http://www.carryconcealed.net/legal/newyork-ccw-state-laws.php
Quote:


Are stun guns legal?
NEW YORK: Illegal New York Consolidated Law (McKinneyís) Book 39. Penal Law. Article 265. Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapons 265.00 15-a. "Electronic dart gun" means any device designed primarily as a weapon, the purpose of which is to momentarily stun, knock out or paralyze a person by passing an electrical shock to such person by means of a dart or projectile. 15-c. "Electronic stun gun" means any device designed primarily as a weapon, the purpose of which is to momentarily stun, cause mental disorientation, knock out or paralyze a person by passing a high voltage electrical shock to such person. Article 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree. A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when: (1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun gun ***; or *** SUMMARY: Possession is banned of Stunning Devices in New York.

Are stun guns ilegal in New York City?
NEW YORK CITY: Illegal Administrative Code of the City of New York 10-135 Prohibition on sale and possession of electronic stun guns. a. As used in this section, "electronic stun gun" shall mean any device designed primarily as a weapon, the purpose of which is to stun, render unconscious or paralyze a person by passing an electronic shock to such person, but shall not include an "electronic dart gun" as such term is defined in section 265.00 of the penal law. b. It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or offer for sale or to have in his or her possession within the jurisdiction of the city any electronic gun. c. Violation of this section shall be a class A misdemeanor. [Exemptions under this section are provided for police officers operating under regular department procedures or guidelines and for manufacturers of electronic stun guns scheduled for bulk shipment. NOTE: The electronic stun gun is not a "firearm" under the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968 because it does not "...expel a projectile by the action of an explosive..."] SUMMARY: Possession and sales of Stunning Devices are banned in New York City

Is peper spray legal in New York?
New York: New York residents may only purchase defense sprays from licensed Firearms Dealers or licensed Pharmacists in that state.





and this is relavent, since the situation is similar:
STATE, EBAY STEM SHIPMENTS OF ILLEGAL STUN GUNS IN NY
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/oct/oct11a_05.html


...just so the folks who are liable, knew.

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#402994 - 07/23/08 05:53 PM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
bump

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#402995 - 07/23/08 08:09 PM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: JKogas]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Um... the topic title is a misrepresentation (pun intended). It's illegal to sell (implied possesion), or offer for sale, or possess said items if you are resident in NY, and therefore within the jurisdiction of NY city). But it's certainly not illegal to advertise it on a website (even though the website, or the company operating the website may be domiciled in NY), since it is a 3rd-party ad on internet media that is publicly accessible to a worldwide audience.

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#402996 - 07/23/08 08:25 PM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Um... the topic title is a misrepresentation (pun intended). It's illegal to sell (implied possesion), or offer for sale, or possess said items if you are resident in NY, and therefore within the jurisdiction of NY city). But it's certainly not illegal to advertise it on a website (even though the website, or the company operating the website may be domiciled in NY), since it is a 3rd-party ad on internet media that is publicly accessible to a worldwide audience.




This was my understanding as well ie; the items for sale are not being targeted specifically at the NY audience.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#402997 - 07/23/08 11:14 PM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'm not a lawyer, but the reference I gave earlier showed that ebay decided to 'voluntarily' stem the sale of illegal weapons from/to NY.
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/oct/oct11a_05.html

perhaps technically and legally, ebay didn't have to do that. I'll let you figure out why they did. In addition, in this case, FA's agreements and terms statement is worded such that they DO claim they are operating within NY law. even e-bay doesn't restrict themselves to that kind of wording.
So which is it? are they abiding by NY law, or are they exercising their no-fault internet freedoms?


porn items, cigaretts, alcohol, etc ...all ok to advertise on a 13+ website, as long as I pay the ad space bill each month?

Using your 'no fault' logic - Could I make a website: 'find a pot dealer in your neighborhood' ? hey, I'M not the one selling the drugs - it's 3rd party, so it's ok right? and I could always just say I intended the search to be for medically prescribed pot users in California only (even though I might be based in Massachusetts).

basically my point in bringing these questions up isn't to try and build cases for class-action suits, but rather:
* hopefully spark awareness by being a pain in the ads.

* Wonder out-loud: Is there no shame/responsibility/moral to making a buck? If your instructor made it manditory that everyone have an ad on the back of their gi - justifying it by saying it pays the bills to keep the doors open - would you stay or go? How about a Joe Camel and Capt Morgan banner on your gi pant-leg?

using an ad blocker would be like rolling up the pant-leg so the ad can't be seen. not visible, but you know it's there. it's the principle.


same principle for deciding to leave here and being a pain till I do....which, by the way, how come my account is still active?

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#402998 - 07/24/08 12:18 AM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I'm not a lawyer, but the reference I gave earlier showed that ebay decided to 'voluntarily' stem the sale of illegal weapons from/to NY.
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/oct/oct11a_05.html

perhaps technically and legally, ebay didn't have to do that. I'll let you figure out why they did. In addition, in this case, FA's agreements and terms statement is worded such that they DO claim they are operating within NY law. even e-bay doesn't restrict themselves to that kind of wording.
So which is it? are they abiding by NY law, or are they exercising their no-fault internet freedoms?



Unlike you "pure" engineering types, I actually did study torts and contract law. And my "no-fault" logic is better than your faulty logic.
Quote:

eBay cooperated in the investigation and was never a target of the Attorney Generalís probe.


It is quite possible that they voluntarily instituted measures to prevent the sale of such items in order to save themselves the pain in the a$$ of having to cooperate with the authorities in future. Just what are you implying by drawing the parallel between FA's TOS and eBay's? As you say, you're not a lawyer... so does that make you qualified to question the validity of the TOS within the law and jurisdiction?

BTW, if you read eBay's User Agreement carefully... (guys and gals... please... ALWAYS read the legal print!!!) you'd note:
Quote:

Law and Forum for Disputes - This Agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the State of California as they apply to agreements entered into and to be performed entirely within California between California residents, without regard to conflict of law provisions. You agree that any claim or dispute you may have against eBay must be resolved by a court located in Santa Clara County, California, except as otherwise agreed by the parties or as described in the Arbitration Option paragraph below. You agree to submit to the personal jurisdiction of the courts located within Santa Clara County, California for the purpose of litigating all such claims or disputes.




That's pretty standard for all website TOS and Usage Policy.

Quote:

porn items, cigaretts, alcohol, etc ...all ok to advertise on a 13+ website, as long as I pay the ad space bill each month?


Since we're just shooting the legal breeze here.... I don't think that's a reasonable comparison.

Quote:

Using your 'no fault' logic - Could I make a website: 'find a pot dealer in your neighborhood' ? hey, I'M not the one selling the drugs - it's 3rd party, so it's ok right? and I could always just say I intended the search to be for medically prescribed pot users in California only (even though I might be based in Massachusetts).


You could try... the FBI and local constabulary might even thank you.

Quote:

basically my point in bringing these questions up isn't to try and build cases for class-action suits, but rather: * hopefully spark awareness by being a pain in the ads.


We're all too aware you're a pain in the a$$... you don't have to "stun" us into submission. Yes, I can see the sparks flying...

Quote:

* Wonder out-loud: Is there no shame/responsibility/moral to making a buck? If your instructor made it manditory that everyone have an ad on the back of their gi - justifying it by saying it pays the bills to keep the doors open - would you stay or go? How about a Joe Camel and Capt Morgan banner on your gi pant-leg?

using an ad blocker would be like rolling up the pant-leg so the ad can't be seen. not visible, but you know it's there. it's the principle.


Thanks for the neat idea... I might see if Gatorade will sponsor us... all I need now is an Ed Blocker... but you're right, that's no good. Even if I ignore him, I know he's still there.

Quote:

same principle for deciding to leave here and being a pain till I do....which, by the way, how come my account is still active?


For a start, you could stand by your principles and not log in...

PS: I'll miss the banter if you go Ed.... please don't go... please....


Edited by eyrie (07/24/08 12:27 AM)

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#402999 - 07/24/08 12:50 AM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Unlike you "pure" engineering types, I actually did study torts and contract law. And my "no-fault" logic is better than your faulty logic.



ah, another on a forum claiming higher knowledge in subjects when it suits the argument. my claim was that I'm not a lawyer, your assumption was that I never studied law, therefore you assumed a superior position. So was that an Aussie-law 101 class, or was it international or US law? You can't trade ewe or kookaburra to resolve disputes in the US, so I'm not sure if your knowledge applies.

Quote:

It is quite possible that they voluntarily instituted measures to prevent the sale of such items in order to save themselves the pain in the a$$ of having to cooperate with the authorities in future. Just what are you implying by drawing the parallel between FA's TOS and eBay's? As you say, you're not a lawyer... so does that make you qualified to question the validity of the TOS within the law and jurisdiction?



yes, I mentioned it was voluntary. and anyone can and should question validity. You also have the freedom to blindly go with authority if you want though. neat how that works, eh?


e-bay's user agreement only applies if selling and buying disputes within CA. Thats not the same wording or meaning as the FA statement.


Quote:

For a start, you could stand by your principles and not log in...



what...and miss all of THIS? lol

it's been real eyrie.

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#403000 - 07/24/08 02:06 AM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

So was that an Aussie-law 101 class, or was it international or US law? You can't trade ewe or kookaburra to resolve disputes in the US, so I'm not sure if your knowledge applies.


I doubt it... otherwise you would know what torts and contracts are. But OK let's assume that you did study *some* law... so you would no doubt know... even though our respective writs and "laws" may not be the same, but the essence of law generally is the same - legal precedents, ratio decidendi, rules and interpretation of law, etc.

Quote:

e-bay's user agreement only applies if selling and buying disputes within CA. Thats not the same wording or meaning as the FA statement.


Wow! He can read... too bad you didn't get the gist of it... both have sections in their TOS indicating the legal jurisdiction of any legal matter arising. But you *knew* that, right?

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#403001 - 07/24/08 03:37 AM Re: Illegal advertising [Re: Ed_Morris]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Ed, have you contacted RIP the site admin for account deletion? If you really want off the site, that may be the way to go. I have sent an e-mail to admin requesting deletion of my account. I see no purpose in staying on this site any longer. The advertisements have been an issue for me from day one but i didn't say much because the site is free to us but after looking at the prices for running a forum such as this i don't see the need for so much advertisement. It wouldn't bother me so much if i wasn't seeing things like bitefight.org. I feel many of the things being advertised contradict the general view of the forum on martial arts and training. This is what i wrote to the admin.

Quote:

I would like my account (laf7773) on Fightingarts.com deleted. I no longer have the desire to use the site or have my name associated with the site. Long term members have been allowed to break common forum rules that get new members banned immediately, myself included. I have disagreed with the advertisements on the site for a long time as I felt they didnít reflect the general view of the forum but until recently has it become an issue. The number and type of advertisements has gotten out of hand and is causing a lot of dispute among forum members. Recent events connected to these advertisements leads me to feel the forum owner cares nothing for the forum itself or itís members and that his only concern is that of financial gain from the site, which is his prerogative. I personally have no desire to remain on the site and would greatly appreciate it if you could delete my account in itís entirety from the site.




This is by no means me looking for a "please don't go" or any sort of validation from anyone on the site. I'm done and this is the last time i will be logging in regardless of if they delete my account or not. Those who want to keep in touch can find my e-mail address in my profile.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#403002 - 07/24/08 09:03 AM Re: Illegal advertising? [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think you are starting to catch on to my point of this thread. With ebay, since they were being used as a 3rd party to illegal activity, they no longer allow illegal transactions esp from/to their own state of incorporation. Apparently, FA doesn't mind being 3rd party to ( hypothetical but easy to imagine) transactions like a NY high school student buying a taser that looks like a cell phone, for reasons we can only imagine. Point being, maybe they aren't technically legally responsible - but morally (or perhaps it turns out even legally?) it's something to think about.

maybe instead of whoring space for cheezy ad sites that are only 1 rung above 'Lieutenant X' scams, something else can be worked out to keep a free site afloat. they could ask e-budo how they manage to do it.

btw, I added a "?" to the thread title for you.

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