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#401834 - 07/11/08 04:32 PM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: everyone]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

Yes, the scene usually does go through the roof when the police arrive. Situations escalate when they or anyone has a weapon.

You take out a weapon to make people act accordingly? I see from your bio that your a LE trainer, that seems to fit.

You have a lot of faith in the law, good luck with that.




Actually in my experience people have a tendency to behave better when the police arrive-not worse in most cases.I could quote the stats..but I won't unless your interested.
Someone threatening or being assaultive usually changes their behavior when they find out they don't have a willing victim-which is what they are usually looking for. I could quote a ton of stats to the contrary
Faith in the law....The law is one of the things that separates us from the animals. It keeps society running in an orderly fashion..more or less. Society without law is anarchy- a place where the weaponless would soon die out. As far as good luck with that....are you living a fairly orderly crime free life with the government providing a lot of things you need...education, roads, etc. ?
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#401835 - 07/11/08 04:42 PM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: everyone]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

Yes, the scene usually does go through the roof when the police arrive. Situations escalate when they or anyone has a weapon.

How many times have you actually seen this happen in your personal life? COPS episodes don't count. Exactly in your opinion what causes the "escalation" when a weapon is present?
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Duane

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#401836 - 07/11/08 04:49 PM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: duanew]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I am not anti-government, anti-laws or anti-police. These are all good things. There are also many abuses in these areas, but that is another topic.

If you want to look up statistics, look up how many complaints against the police department were made last year. How many of those complaints have been investigated.

The reality is weapons escalate problems. Civilians with weapons making people "act accordingly" just makes it worse.

I do completely agree with you that one should not be a willing victim.

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#401837 - 07/11/08 05:01 PM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: duanew]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Weapons escalate problems because the stakes are raised. A simple brawl is turned into a deathmatch. A stupid drunk who wrestles with a cop gets shot because he was "reaching for my gun". (if he deserves what he gets isn't the point)

Anytime a weapon is present, the controller of it has to be prepared to use it. This is an escalation.

And yes, on several occasions, I have seen situations escalate because police presence. If you would like, pm me and I will go into detail.

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#401838 - 07/11/08 05:07 PM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: everyone]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

I am not anti-government, anti-laws or anti-police. These are all good things. There are also many abuses in these areas, but that is another topic.

If you want to look up statistics, look up how many complaints against the police department were made last year. How many of those complaints have been investigated.

The reality is weapons escalate problems. Civilians with weapons making people "act accordingly" just makes it worse.

Many abuses...really. How do you define many? Which department would you like me to look at? In my state each complaint is required by law to be investigated.Once again you say "the reality" is that weapons escalate things. My reality is based on being there and seeing the opposite. In 100,000 contacts between civilians and police less then 2% required any use of force. Doesn't do much for the escaltion "reality" does it?

A civilian who is threatened by a mugger with a baseball bat who pulls a gun resulting in the mugger running away is what I am talking about when I refer to "acting accordingly" perhaps I should have phrased it differently. Let's say deescalating the situation by being a position to make a predator re-evaluate his intended prey. I didn't mean people pulling weapons to get people to do what they want-that's a crime. Once again know the law and obey the law and in most cases you will be fine. In my experience people who don't have faith in the law either watch to much tv or feel they have gotten the shaft by the law so therefor it doesn't work for them. Visit a prison and you will find all kinds of people of people who have a problem with how the law is handled...most are innocent..just ask them.
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#401839 - 07/11/08 08:59 PM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: bighitter]
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1723
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I wasn't going to get involved in another weapons thread, but some aspects of your post worry me.
For starters, "martial" is the same as "military". And soldies through the ages have found it much more efficient to fight armed instead of unarmed. So it's not necessarily thuggish to resort to a weapon, but definitely more efficient.
That said, what I find worrisome in your post is that it seems to imply you believe that an unarmed person has a reasonable chance against an armed opponent. Ask any group of advanced martial artists about this, and the concensus will be that unarmed techniques against a weapon are a losing propsition. The reason to train in them is A. That they're better than nothing if you get caught in a bad situation without a weapon and, B. They're skillful use may provide a chance of perhaps bringing an incident to swift closure before a weapon is deployed by either side (Defender or attacker).
I don't have any stats. on hand. But if they're obtainable. I'd be willing to bet that the proportion of people who've been seriously hurt by trying to take on an armed opponent H2H is one whole heck of a lot higher than those hurt by having their weapon taken from them, hurting themselves with their own weapon, etc.
In any case, I doubt the number is anything but small, 'cause horse sense and sheer survival instinct keeps most people from trying to fight unarmed against someone with a weapon, unless there's no other choice.
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Just when you think something is foolproof, they come out with a new and improved type of fool.

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#401840 - 07/11/08 09:51 PM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: everyone]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

Weapons escalate problems because the stakes are raised. A simple brawl is turned into a deathmatch. A stupid drunk who wrestles with a cop gets shot because he was "reaching for my gun". (if he deserves what he gets isn't the point)

Anytime a weapon is present, the controller of it has to be prepared to use it. This is an escalation.

It wasn't the weapon that escalated the situation is was the choice made by the attacker. The presence of a weapon doesn't "make" make people do things.

So anyone who practices martial arts escalates situations because they have to be prepared to fight?
_________________________
Duane

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#401841 - 07/12/08 01:52 AM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: kempo_jujitsu]
swseibukan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 196
Loc: Lakewood, Colorado
Quote:

that's a good way to get arrested if you ask me. at least...don't conceal the weapon. and, all i need is to accidently kill someone...not good.




How do you see yourself accidentally killing someone?

How is the potential of accidentally killing someone any greater with a weapon than with your bare hands?

If you pop a guy in the jaw and he falls badly he could break his neck or crack his skull. If you choke him out he might not resuscitate. There are any number of ways you might accidentally kill someone empty handed.

Now if things get down and dirty enough that I feel the need to employ a weapon to protect my loved ones, or myself there aren’t going to be any accidents any subsequent injury or death will be intentional.

And yes I carry.
_________________________
Pat O'Brien
Southwest Seibukan

Patience my ass I’m going to kill something

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#401842 - 07/12/08 04:39 AM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: swseibukan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
You people scare me.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#401843 - 07/12/08 07:57 AM Re: Keep a weapon on you? [Re: Shonuff]
duanew Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
Quote:

You people scare me.




Sheep are often afraid of the sheepdog, but very happy to have them around when the wolf shows up.
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