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#401673 - 07/09/08 04:10 AM Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Has the potential to be a real 'creature feature'. Both real big guys with brawling instincts.

Herring has started friendly by saying 'If they want me to fight some steroided-out wrestler, then thats fine by me'

Lesnar has said that this fight is a 'make of break' event in his MMA path.

I just hope that Herring doesn't start taking cheap shots at Brocks WWE background- as a guy who has copied the undertakers wardrobe and entrance, he really shouldnt go there
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#401674 - 07/09/08 12:04 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: Cord]
Borrek Offline
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Registered: 01/05/06
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Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Brock Lesnar has always been a monster. He wrestled at Minnesota, which being a Big-10 school is known for being a hard ass wrestling program. Its not like when you hear about C.B. Dolloway being an "All-American" out of Arizona State. Arizona state is barely even a second rate program. Lesnar graduated from Minnesota in 2000, but the Gophers won the NCAA team championships in 2001 and 2002 which means even in 2000 it was a tough program. One of my friends wrestled for Ohio State and was a ridiculously good wrestler, but was manhandled by Lesnar. It was like an adult wrestling a small child. Or, like Tiger Woods playing in the ladies PGA...just not fair. NCAA is heavily regulated for enhancement, and he was a bad-ass then, so even if he got help for his stint in the WWE, genetically he has what it takes to be in the shape he's currently in.

I've never understood the Heath Herring thing. He has always looked lazy and out of shape to me. I think the whole "cowboy" thing just got him some big attention in Japan because they like just about anything stereotypically over the top "American" (they even drink budweiser on purpose for god's sake!)

Herring likes to stand, but he won't be able to stop Lesnar taking him down. If Lesnar has been making some reasonable progress in his training (ie submission defense) then I think Herring may need the Undertaker. Or his creepy little urn carrying sidekick at least. What was that dudes name?



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#401675 - 07/09/08 05:48 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: Borrek]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Or his creepy little urn carrying sidekick at least. What was that dudes name?







That was Paul Bearer, though he hasnt been with the 'Taker for some years now, aside from a brief return just post 'Attitude' years.
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#401676 - 07/09/08 11:38 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: Cord]
bo-ken Offline
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Paul Bearer used to freak the crap out of me. I think this could be a great fight. Conditioning is going to play a big factor and Heath needs to get in shape to fight a demon like Brock. I want to see if Heath can stop Lesnar's takedowns.

I am glad Mark Coleman got hurt and can fight Lesnar this is going to be a much better bout.

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#401677 - 07/10/08 07:26 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: bo-ken]
MattJ Offline
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Lesnar FTW. Herring won't be able to stop the takedown, and I would imagine that Lesnar's ground game should be enough to let him get some mean GnP on Herring.
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#401678 - 07/10/08 08:11 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: MattJ]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Herring has a habit of feeding his back to his opponent. The first time he does that with Lesnar, it's Finito Santiago.
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#401679 - 07/14/08 06:11 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: Cord]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Didn't Brock Lesnar get knee-barred by Frank Mir? And isn't Heath Herring a Sambo practitioner who has particularly good leg locks? I hope Lesnar has improved his submission defense!

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#401680 - 07/14/08 07:02 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: Supremor]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

Didn't Brock Lesnar get knee-barred by Frank Mir? And isn't Heath Herring a Sambo practitioner who has particularly good leg locks? I hope Lesnar has improved his submission defense!




Alternately, you can hope that Herring manages to stay conscious for as long as Mir did. That he was awake to deliver that submission was more by luck than judgement- he took a ferocious pounding
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#401681 - 07/14/08 09:20 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
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True that, Cord. The Mir fight almost got stopped before Frank was able to get that knee-bar on. Lesnar's striking and GnP are something to be feared.
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#401682 - 07/14/08 04:56 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: MattJ]
Raul Perez Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
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Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Ya know... Lesnar reminds me of a white Bob Sapp. I'm sure he could be good but the hype surrounding him, to me, will be his potential demise in the sport of MMA.

He fought 1 official MMA bout against an average Judoka and then gets a HUGE contract to fight in the UFC. Then they put him up against Frank Mir who they hoped would be the same Frank Mir that was trying to make a comeback after his accident (Hoping for a Brock victory to match the hype). Luckily Mir actually trained for the fight.

So an average judoka (victory), an almost washed up former champion (defeat) and now Heath Herring. I guess they are hoping for another average fighter for Lesnar to fight and destroy.

In all honesty they shouldn't have hyped him up so much and allowed him to work his way up the ranks systematically below the radar. That would have increased his skill and his image in the UFC. I see his reign short and uneventful in the UFC or any MMA org for that matter. He'll probably be another Koscheck and blanket his opponents for the win.

Of course I could be wrong completely and he is the next best thing since sliced bread.
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#401683 - 07/20/08 12:11 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar [Re: Raul Perez]
BigRod Offline
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Registered: 02/10/05
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Herring's biggest problem is he's not consistent. The guys got talent on the rare occasions he decides to use it. Brock on the other hand, is a BIG dude, who actually looked pretty good against Mir.

And Matt, you're dead on with your assesment of the Brock - Mir fight. Mir got his a$$ handed to him on a silver platter and was lucky to get that kneebar. I think Brock's inexperience played a much bigger factor in the success of that kneebar more so than Mir's so-called ability.

But back to Brock and Heath...I think this really could go either way. Heath doesn't fight often enough to see where he's really at, and Brock is too green. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Brock win.

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#401684 - 08/11/08 10:26 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: BigRod]
BrianS Offline
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Heath got owned the entire fight. I'm surprised it didn't get stopped before the end.

Good job Brock, much improvement!!
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#401685 - 08/11/08 10:36 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
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Can't view them myself yet, but vids here while they last:

http://www.mmascraps.com/
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#401686 - 08/11/08 11:11 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: MattJ]
Cord Offline
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Loc: Cambridge UK.
Thanks for the link MJ.
You know, one of the coolest things about 'Tekken' on the PS, is the way that when your character lets loose with a power punch, your oponent flies backwards and the momentum makes them roll along the floor. I have never seen that happen in real life till that fight

Why did the movie makers spend all that money on CGI for the hulk Movies? All they needed was Brock and a can of green emulsion.

Herring said in a pre-fight interview in 'Fighters only' magazine, that if Dana wanted him to fight steroid drenched jokes, then that is what he would do. When pushed to qualify if that was a direct reference to Brock, he only laughed, and moved on.
I didn't see him laughing in that fight.
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#401687 - 08/11/08 12:27 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
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#401688 - 08/11/08 01:18 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Gavin]
bo-ken Offline
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Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
It was a really good fight for Brock. His takedowns are unstoppable he never let Herring dictate the pass at all. I think he can make big waves in the heavy weight division.

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#401689 - 08/11/08 01:36 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: bo-ken]
Zombie Zero Offline
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He's developing good MMA skills, but he still has a WWE personality.
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#401690 - 08/11/08 01:42 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Zombie Zero]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Here is my opinion; Lesnar has no real skills. Only due to his enormous size and strength was he able to control the fight the way he did. At the end of the fight I found him highly disrespectful to Herring. Riding him and swinging his arm in the final seconds of the fight, pointing at him and laughing after the bell, doing the fishing rod gag and then when he talked.

I was never a huge fan of Lesnar when I watched WWE but one cannot be impressed by his huge size and I was looking forward to him fighting. But because he showed that he is an A$$ I couldn't be bothered. I hope somebody he faces next knocks him the F.U.C.K. out. What a jerk.
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#401691 - 08/11/08 02:24 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Tom2199 Offline
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Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
true about the WWE personality, its majorly lame to go with an MMA career.
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#401692 - 08/11/08 03:36 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Taison Offline
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Agreed, no sportmanship whatsoever.

~Donnie
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#401693 - 08/11/08 03:41 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Here is my opinion; Lesnar has no real skills.




That's an interesting take (while I have not seen the fight so I offer no opinion on his skills per say).

The reason I say it's interesting is the MMA sport puts such a huge emphasis on athletic ability, strength and stamina. There are many fighters I have seen who skills I find lacking, especially in the stand up game but they are so damn big, strong and just plain tuff they can get away with it. (this is not just pro fighters but even guys in my own school).

So when that aspect of training reaches it's inevitable end, you get a Lesner who with freakish strength and a less the great amount of skill, can come out on top.

I just find it interesting.
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#401694 - 08/11/08 04:08 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

The reason I say it's interesting is the MMA sport puts such a huge emphasis on athletic ability, strength and stamina. There are many fighters I have seen who skills I find lacking, especially in the stand up game but they are so damn big, strong and just plain tuff they can get away with it. (this is not just pro fighters but even guys in my own school).




I don't agree with that at all. It's comparitively rare to find pure physical "freaks" in MMA - by and large, they don't do well (Kimbo?). Most of the top guys are phenomenally skilled (GSP, Anderson Silva, Urijah Faber, Miguel Torres, etc), on top of being incredible athletes. Hell, BJ Penn won a lot of his fights DESPITE being in poor condition for being a pro.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that MMA is attribute-driven, as opposed to being technical. Remember that Lesnar LOST to Frank Mir, despite him completely over-powering Frank.

Quote:

So when that aspect of training reaches it's inevitable end, you get a Lesner who with freakish strength and a less the great amount of skill, can come out on top.




I do find the "freaks" interesting too, but that says nothing about the sport at all. Size and strength will matter in any sport.
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#401695 - 08/11/08 04:29 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I don't agree with that at all. It's comparitively rare to find pure physical "freaks" in MMA




Well you are free to disagree, but you would be wrong

Seriously though, I was not speaking about top tier fighters as much as the sport as a whole. I have been to a few MMA gyms and we have a team at our school. In my experience the fighters are very athletic, more so then they are highly skilled, with a few exceptions of course.

I also think it's common where the students of these schools use their physical abilities to compensate for otherwise less then grea fighting skills (with the distinct exception of BJJ schools).

Kimo
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#401696 - 08/11/08 04:53 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Well you are free to disagree, but you would be wrong




*snort*

Quote:

Seriously though, I was not speaking about top tier fighters as much as the sport as a whole. I have been to a few MMA gyms and we have a team at our school. In my experience the fighters are very athletic, more so then they are highly skilled, with a few exceptions of course.




Well, I think that's true of most fighters at lower skill levels.
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#401697 - 08/11/08 05:13 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Well, I think that's true of most fighters at lower skill levels.




Well if that were the case I wouldn't have a point, and I most certainly have and make a very good point.
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#401698 - 08/11/08 05:51 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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From what I know of Lesnar he is training with some capable people however he is still in the infancy stage of martial arts training so he has "less then" basics at this point in my opinion. Yes he was a high end wrestler during his time as I've heard who for all I know used brute force then as well and it worked, but I just did not see it in the 2 UFC fights he had so far nor the one in the other venue. So far his freakish strength and size have been what he has been using and Frank Mir only got lucky that due to Lesnar's inexperience gave him the leg for him to latch onto and submit him as if you watch the video he wasn't doing good up until that point in the fight and it would have got worse.

Lesnar is using what he has available to him and I'm okay with that and as he gets more trained hopefully he can balance the two HOWEVER that does forgive the fact he was an A$$HOLE.

I did find it funny that Dana told him if he came to the UFC to learn to fight then go somewhere else. I suspect that is why Lesnar got some people to help out but it is my belief that he is still putting more effort into his workouts of lifting then his fight training. That is a hard thing to give up especially since he's been doing it so long; I find it difficult and I've only been doing it 11 years and not at the calibre he has. Finding a balance is hard and he will need to look for it if he wishes to gain any credible skill besides being monstrously strong.
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#401699 - 08/11/08 06:42 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Spade Offline
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Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Hes surprisingly quick for his size.


The first punch he threw was quicker than Heath was expecting, Heath didn't even have his hands up.

Thems my thoughts.
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#401700 - 08/11/08 06:58 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Spade]
Dereck Offline
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Correct on both counts; fast guy for his size and Herring wasn't expecting it ... and wow what a punch it was. What was with the bull rush? Lesnar's head was down and luckily Herrings wasn't in the way otherwise they would have collided and Lesnar could have knocked himself out and also had the fight end in a disqualification.
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#401701 - 08/11/08 07:05 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Tom2199 Offline
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Registered: 04/18/04
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Loc: England
i was wondering that myself Dereck, maybe it was for effect.
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#401702 - 08/11/08 08:44 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Tom2199]
MattJ Offline
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Wow. Total domination by Lesnar. That first strike literally sent Herring ass over end across the ring. Brock's positional skill is very good, although I wondered why he wasn't trying to submit Heath from the back - or even get his hooks in. Lack of skill or just didn't need it? Tough to say. But better Heath than me!

Florian vs Huerta was another good fight. How about Kenny's sweep on Roger, with the punch follow-up? And Kenny's opening in the third round, with knees and takedowns, great stuff. LOL Roger spits at the crowd. Good aggressiveness by Roger, but Kenny was more precise.

GSP vs Fitch - How Fitch even made it out of the first round is amazing to me. GSP is simply on another level, striking, takedowns, positional control.......speechless. George's striking combinations (spinning back fist!) are incredible. Props to Fitch for surviving 5 rounds, but no question - GSP won that one by a mile.
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#401703 - 08/11/08 10:40 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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Lesnar is a tool. Garbage like that ruins the sport for me.

Thanks but no thanks Dana.

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#401704 - 08/11/08 11:40 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: JKogas]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
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I much prefer sportsmanship to 'attitude', but I cant help feeling that Herring brought Lesnar's showboating on himself. You cant talk consistent sh1t about someone, accuse them of being a joke, and then expect them to be all 'no hard feelings' at the end of it, win or lose.
Add to this that Brock freely admitted that this was his 'make of break' fight, that would decide his future regarding if he stayed in MMA, and what you have Brock giving a beatdown to a guy who deserved it, whilst simultaneously validating his continuation in a world he clearly loves.
I might have showboated too.

At least he didnt 'dig a grave' in the octagon while not knowing if his oponent was OK a la 'Huntingdon Beach bloated baby' Ortiz.

He is big and strong- instantly alienating the general Martial art community, who despise the thought of technique not conquering all.
He is an ex 'entertainment' wrestler, so instantly alienates MMA fans who see him as a poser, or fake or wannabe.

Unlike Kurt Angle, he has walked the walk, and clearly is not afraid of a fight, so I say good luck to him, and to the naysayers, if you want some respect beaten in to him, then go ahead and try- I am in no hurry to join that queue
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#401705 - 08/12/08 07:21 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
JKogas Offline
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Good points Cord. I didn't realize there had been that much pre-existing smack talk. If that's the case, you deserve to have your mouth shut when you get spanked.

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#401706 - 08/12/08 09:18 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: JKogas]
Dereck Offline
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I don't agree. GSP, Silva, Couture, etc. if suffered "smack talk" would have done it with their fists and then would have left it at that. The difference between these guys and Lesnar ... they have class.
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#401707 - 08/12/08 11:12 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Herring probably did deserve it, but it made Lesnar look like just as much an ass as Herring.

As in any sport if somone is that much bigger or stronger, you BETTER be that much better. Your technical ability better 'outweigh' their brute strength.
I know guys like John and Matt know what I'm talking about. I've had 'students' that I could out strike, out wrestle, and roll around in the beginning even they were much bigger and stronger than me, but they had not a clue. When they improved..pfffft...not so much,lol. It sucks.
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#401708 - 08/13/08 01:28 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: BrianS]
TheCrab Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Agreed with cord, everyone is saying lesnar is an ass for showboating, but herring was giving him [censored] before the fight, so he had it coming.

Quote:

As in any sport if somone is that much bigger or stronger, you BETTER be that much better.



I would consider strength as an advantage, not the decider. Same with technique, and speed, and size. etc. everyones hung up on technique, but being "better" than your opponent doesnt always mean S**t towards who will win

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#401709 - 08/13/08 05:33 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

Herring probably did deserve it, but it made Lesnar look like just as much an ass as Herring.





Yeah, regardless of what the circumstances leading up to it were, Lesnar is still a tool in my eyes for not taking the higher road.


Quote:


As in any sport if somone is that much bigger or stronger, you BETTER be that much better. Your technical ability better 'outweigh' their brute strength.





And in this case, Lesnar looks so much bigger than everyone else (except for perhaps Kongo) that they almost need another division. I realize the UFC doesn't have a Super Heavyweight division, but perhaps they should? I'd bet that Lesnar has to cut a lot of weight to get in at 265.

Its one thing to be good (which I'm sure Lesnar is a great wrestler). It's another thing to be like a man fighting a boy. Here is a quote from Lesnar himself:

"I wasn't the best technician in amateur wrestling. But I was strong, had great conditioning, and a hard head


.

I think that about sums it up.

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#401710 - 08/13/08 11:50 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TheCrab]
Dereck Offline
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Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Agreed with cord, everyone is saying lesnar is an ass for showboating, but herring was giving him [censored] before the fight, so he had it coming.




Sorry, don't buy it; not one bit.

I don't care if during the pre-fight that $HIT goes on; that is the build up and that stuff happens ALL OF THE TIME. Do you think for once that Lesnar was the only one in this position? Give me a break! Lesnar was a certifiable A$$ and that is the bottom line. One thing to talk down to a fighter afterwards, though is frowned upon, however for antics like he did; that is above and beyond and with only 1 frickin' win in the UFC ... he pretty much label himself. People used to get on Tito for doing his grave digger routine however Tito at that time was continually winning and improving himself and was become a staple in the industry as one of the leading fighters. Lesnar isn't even close to this and should show some more class instead of being an A$$.

"duh ... me big muscle head ... duh ... I don't know any better ... duh"

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#401711 - 08/13/08 05:09 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Tom2199 Offline
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Registered: 04/18/04
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Brock has a big lame personality just admit it people, Heath deserves a lot of respect guess Brock is just lacking class after all you don't see a spec of it in WWE.
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#401712 - 08/13/08 05:16 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
It was a very boring one sided fight. Heath hearing pretty much survived. He put up no challenge for Lesnar. He was out from the moment he caught that over hand right. I know Hearing is more of a stand up guy, but I would imagine that by now he has some submissions. If I were him I would have gone for a ankle or knee bar lock. Lesnar is new to jui-jitsu and those guys always worry about chokes, armbars and triangles they completely forget about the leg locks. Usually because hardly anyone other than Ken Shamrock uses them.

But a beginner like Lesnar wouldn't have known which way to roll to escape one....I just know it. Reason why i say this is because I myself am also a beginner and I still don't have enough confidence to roll in order to escape a lock.

Brocks does have skill though, he is big, strong, fast, good boxing, heavy punches, great wrestling in my opinion, he is able to control his man. His take downs did not impress me, he often bull dogs his man down. As if he were doing a 4 point football stance. But I guess whatever works, works.

I feel a pure jui-jitsu guy will defeat him.

I was not impressed with Congo's match. I felt he would have been a better opponent for Lesnar.
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#401713 - 08/13/08 05:59 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
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Cheick Kongo lost his last fight to Heath Herring. Now with Herring losing to Lesnar and Kongo beating his opponent and thinking he deserves a title shot, I suspect these two will fight next. Kongo has limited ground experience and is more of a stand-up fighter so I suspect the same results. Won't be an exciting fight unless Kongo has an upset. As I don't care for either fighter I don't care which way this goes.
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#401714 - 08/13/08 06:17 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Tom2199]
Cord Offline
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OK, I am going to play a little devil's advocate here, mainly for fun, 'cause I dont like lack of sportsmanship, but also because I dont think we can judge Lesnar's attitude on this one fight alone.

The defence for Brock Lesnar.

1. Having failed to get a wrestling scholarship entry to college, Brock enrolled and off his own back, became a 4 time all american champ.
This is the start of an early pattern of being underestimated, or unappreciated for his talent, and having to prove people wrong.

2. He joins WWE, and while much is made of Kurt Angle's 'real' sporting pedigree, Brock is introduced as just another no-neck slab of beef. He proves popular with fans, but is treated poorly by the organisation. Again, its him vs those in control.

3. He leaves WWE, and will forever have the 'wrastlin' ' stigma attached to his credibility as an athlete. He joins the NFL on a trial pre-season try-out. Its a sport he has little experience of, having thrown his passion into his wrestling, and the try-out is unsuccessful, and very highly publicised. Another unfair blow is struck to his athletic reputation.

4. He takes stock, and decides that his experience, attributes, and continuing need to be recognised as a 'real' athlete, are all tailor made for MMA. He doesnt talk about it, he ups and goes for it, and wins his first fight in a smaller promotion. Things have started well.

5. His profile means that the UFC becomes a real option, and he says yes, but only for real with good fighters, and he starts with Mir, who technicaly won the fight, but did not beat the man. Does he get props for jumping in at the deep end? does he get any credit for nearly KO'ing a world champ? No, on the whole he gets a luke warm reception, and lots of talk about the WW freakin' E, and White telling him that the UFC is not a place to 'learn to fight'.

6. Undeterred, he signs up to fight Coleman, who is replaced with Herring- a young, up and coming legitemate contender with over 40 MMA fights. He takes the replacement, and prior to the fight, is respectful and talks of Herrings 'superior striking' and 'great experience'. How is this reciprocated? Herring laughs about having to fight him, calls him a 'steroided out wrastler', and generaly whines and b1tches that he is too good for a freakshow undercard. This from a guy who comes to the Octagon in a leather Duster and black stetson!?!?

Now think about the above. You are 30 years old, and have trained like a beast all your life. You have proved college coaches wrong, you have been stiffed by management even at times of success, you have worn your heart on your sleeve and had the courage to try, and fail, in public, and have recieved nothing but grief and derision from all quarters no matter how hard you try, and no matter what medals you win.

The win over Herring will have to get him some credibility as a fighter- there is no way it can't. that is why he was so OTT in the win celebrations, and as people accept him as for real, and as he begins to feel that he only has to fight his oponent, and not his history, so we may see the class you feel is missing.
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#401715 - 08/13/08 06:50 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
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Loc: Northern California, USA
To me it wasn't that he won, that will get him accepted, it was how he won, he showed a lot of skill. Striking, knocked down Hearing with the first punch connected. Wrestling, controlled hearing on the ground all 3 rounds. He even reversed hearings guard twice.

What he did show was his lack of submission. As of right now I don't think he has any. Also his ground & pound needs work. He should have been able to put hearing away in the all three rounds.

As far as him being a showboat, well we who are not big Lesnar fans may have found it disgusting. But his home state crowd didn't think so, and that's who he was catering to, that's his fan base. They all loved it.

If you saw the fight, Brock really did ride that 'Texas crazy horse' right out of town.
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#401716 - 08/13/08 07:14 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TeK9]
Cord Offline
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Quote:

What he did show was his lack of submission. As of right now I don't think he has any. Also his ground & pound needs work. He should have been able to put hearing away in the all three rounds.




I know what you mean- he looked to try an RNC once, but sort of thought 'ah screw it' and just went back to mauling him He doesn't seem to want to use 'hooks' with his legs/feet at the moment, and I wonder if this is because he is reluctant to 'tie up' and compromise that wonderful wrestling mobility he demonstrated?
Most fighters use their limbs to 'stick' to their oponent, and control them on the ground. Brock kind of just splats them and then holds them still- Herring 'should' have had the skill and technique to sweep or escape such 'industrial' manhandling with relative ease. Evidently its going to take more 'oomph' than a 6'3" 230lber can muster to deal with

Quote:

If you saw the fight, Brock really did ride that 'Texas crazy horse' right out of town.




He certainly did, and maybe Herring will have learned not to underestimate oponents in his future as well.
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#401717 - 08/13/08 07:47 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
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Excellent analysis, Cord. You should be a sports commentator. You > Bob Costas (via GnP if necessary, LOL).
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#401718 - 08/13/08 07:56 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
Dereck Offline
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Nice write up Cord and I give props to Lesnar for that, and I did prior and was a pro Lesnar person. However we are defined by our actions and his actions after the fight diminished how I felt about him. I don't think his antics afterward had anything to do with all that you said and was merely a portion of his personality coming out. At that moment I think everything went from his brain and he at that moment was riding a high that made him forget that to become seen as a legit fighter you need to act like one; sadly he failed that part.

If the fight was what it was and afterward he did not "ride" the Crazy Horse and then went "fishing" or pointing and laughing, but got up and just ignored him or waiting for Herring to congratulate him or wanting to be the bigger man and congratulate Herring for the fight; then I think Lesnar would be going in the right direction and more creditable as a MMA fighter. Respect has to be earned and that was not a good start. Winning a fight alone is not enough but how you win ... or how you lose, that defines a MMA fighter.
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#401719 - 08/13/08 08:07 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
Tom2199 Offline
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Registered: 04/18/04
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Loc: England
Quote:


and as he begins to feel that he only has to fight his oponent, and not his history, so we may see the class you feel is missing.




hopefully, unfortunately we will have to put up with his obnoxiousness until then. i hope he starts to gel with the MMA crowd a bit better and forget all this WWE showboating.
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#401720 - 08/13/08 08:22 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Aesir Offline
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Registered: 07/17/07
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Loc: Croydon, UK
In the fight I don't think Brock showed any real skill between him and an amateur fighter. He showed absolutly no ground game and I believe he just won because of his weight, I saw no real MMA skill in him..yet

I think he could be really good one day but at the moment I don't think his talent and lack of fights warrents him a place in the UFC.

With regard to all the smack talk before the fight I think much of it is hyped up and edited by the ufc to build up excitement/entertainment for the fight. Also I think a part of it is the fighters getting into the mindset for the upcoming fight.

I think that taking steroids to help them perform is wrong and if they did or still do then they shouldn't be allowed to compete unless the sport allows it in this sense I don't think Lesnar should be allowed to participate. Howevere I do not know if he actually used or not so that isn't for me to say.

Bottom line regardless of what goes on before a fight a sportsman should be gracious in his victory and not act like the pr*ck Lesnar did. I'm 18 and I wouldn't act like that after just beating someone in a competition(unless they were a friend )

With all the flack he is getting aswell I don't believe it bodes well for him and serious mma fans.

However I reckon part of the reason Dana letting him fight in the UFC is he hopes the wwe fans will transition over into mma and if that is the case then his antics will be encouraged which is a sad thing.

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#401721 - 08/14/08 06:38 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
JKogas Offline
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I'm sure there are quite a lot of people with similar circumstances. That isn't a green light to being a rampaging a$$hole.

I'll give him is due as a competitor and athlete. But credibility for being a legitimate fighter is one thing. Being a legitimate a$$hole is another.

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#401722 - 08/14/08 06:55 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Aesir]
TheCrab Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
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Quote:

I don't think Brock showed any real skill between him and an amateur fighter



Apart from beating herring, lol

Quote:

I don't think his talent and lack of fights warrents him a place in the UFC.



So you think everyone should be slim built super technical fighters? he may not be as fine tuned as everyone else, but he has other advantages, which clearly work well for him. Skill isnt everything towards who will win.

Quote:

I think that taking steroids to help them perform is wrong



Why beat up on lesnar for this? how do you know hes even on steroids? hes half the size he was before so if anything hes off steroids. Dont see you complaining about randleman or bob sapp or sherk or tito?

Quote:

I'm 18 and I wouldn't act like that after just beating someone in a competition



Well after you win a fight in similar circumstances your opinion on that might mean a little more

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#401723 - 08/14/08 07:50 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TheCrab]
Tom2199 Offline
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I think Brock deserves a place in the UFC but his skill level is no where near that of many of the UFC fighters around today. As long as he remains at this skill level there are going to be people who will be able to take advantage of him like Mir, like mentioned before i think a good submission artist would be his downfall... also his stand up is not exactly brilliant at the moment.

I say give Brock his chance, if he continues to improve and add technical skill to his arsenal then he could be a big force in the UFC (quite literally).

You don't have to like the guy, and all his fights might just turn out to be a snore fest hearings wasn't exciting if you ask me.
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#401724 - 08/14/08 08:32 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Tom2199]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Posts: 1057
Personally I am concerned about MMA fighters starting to act like WWE performers as others have stated in the thread.

The reason is I have seen so many kids (18-24yo) come through the door and the attitude they often bring is not acceptable, now we get them sraightened out pretty quick but it gets old. They think Karate and other TMA are all crap and don't work, even though they of course know nothing about the arts, and most of these concepts are formed from what that see and perceive watching UFC and other fight sports....much the same way my generation was influenced by Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris movies/TV shows.

So if UFC fighters lose that mutual respect for each other and go down the road of taunting and the like, we are going to see it in the young fans and students and it will be just that much more crap we will have to deal with it.

In terms of Brock as a fighter, I think he is a force. He beat the hell out of Mir even though he lost. So to those who say he doesn't belong in the UFC, I say put up a fighter that dominates him and sends him back to the minors...is there anyone that can do that? I am not that familar wih the sport so I honestly don't know, but unless you can say he would be routinely whipped by the other UFC fighters, then I am not sure how you can argue he doesn't belong there.
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#401725 - 08/14/08 08:53 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
TheCrab Offline
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Quote:


Personally I am concerned about MMA fighters starting to act like WWE performers




Ali showboated and noone gives him a hard time

Quote:

They think Karate and other TMA are all crap and don't work



whatt? half of them have karate backgrounds, chuck liddell for example. dont say they dont do their research if you dont do yours

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#401726 - 08/14/08 09:27 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TheCrab]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

whatt? half of them have karate backgrounds, chuck liddell for example. dont say they dont do their research if you dont do yours




Hey I have an idea, why don't you try reading my post before you start shooting off your mouth. I was referring to the kids who are coming into my school the train MMA, so I think I have a pretty good handle on the "research".


Quote:


Ali showboated and noone gives him a hard time




So that makes it OK? Oh and maybe you should get your facts straight, a lot of people gave him a hard time, AND there are famous boxers who didn't speak to him for years because of the way he disrespected them.
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#401727 - 08/14/08 09:34 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TheCrab]
Dereck Offline
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Crab, we weren't around back then and I'm sure that many thought Ali was disrespectable and wanted to punch his lights out ... though very very few did. In some respect in the boxing world this stuff still goes on however one thing I and others like about the UFC and MMA is the "respect" shown after the fight; that sets this sport ahead in the game and do not want that diminished. I don't want this being a "show", we have the WWE for that. And while I was a big WWE fan years ago I would prefer the two NOT cross over any more then it already has.

As for steroids, many fighters have and are using them but know when to stop while training for a fight. And it isn't just steroids they are using; growth hormones and other enhancement drugs; some of which cannot be found in their testing process. Lesnar is big because of those types of things; there is no question or denying it. Is he still taking is another thing and without any proof I would say yes he is, but again knows when to stop. You don't get that big and strong naturally. And again many take them; Sean Sherk obviously and others including Stephen Bonnar that was put on the shelf for a time. It happens; it is happening.
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#401728 - 08/14/08 10:00 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
TheCrab Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
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Quote:

why don't you try reading my post before you start shooting off your mouth.



Sorry about that, read over your post a bit fast I guess

Quote:

So that makes it OK?



Screwed that up as well. Must be tired lol. what I meant was, fighters, experienced or new, have always showboated, its not some bad WWE influence.

Dereck -

Quote:

I don't want this being a "show", we have the WWE for that.



Thats what I meant, its not like its getting to the point of ridiculous, or exceeding any other sports by that means. Look at boxing. Mundine, Ali, Tyson. Every sport has a bit of smack talk before and after the game/match, and a bit of taunting or showing off during it. UFC's no different.

On the steroid side of things, He may well be on steroids, ( he is a big motherf**er) but Im not going to make any assumptions. everyone likes getting up certain people for using roids but like you said, the fact is, steroids are largely used by professional athletes, heck, probably the majority are on the gear. But dont go heat seeking on one bloke for using. after all its only an advantage if noone else has it. Look at sprinting for example. EVERYONE is on the gear, because if your not using, you have the disadvantage.

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#401729 - 08/14/08 11:09 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TheCrab]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Loc: Great White North
Don't worry Crab, I'm not getting up on anybody for steroid use, because as you pointed out, many are already on the "gear". Gear ... that is a well used term for it as that is what people I know that have or are doing it call it.
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