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#401713 - 08/13/08 05:59 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Cheick Kongo lost his last fight to Heath Herring. Now with Herring losing to Lesnar and Kongo beating his opponent and thinking he deserves a title shot, I suspect these two will fight next. Kongo has limited ground experience and is more of a stand-up fighter so I suspect the same results. Won't be an exciting fight unless Kongo has an upset. As I don't care for either fighter I don't care which way this goes.
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#401714 - 08/13/08 06:17 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Tom2199]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
OK, I am going to play a little devil's advocate here, mainly for fun, 'cause I dont like lack of sportsmanship, but also because I dont think we can judge Lesnar's attitude on this one fight alone.

The defence for Brock Lesnar.

1. Having failed to get a wrestling scholarship entry to college, Brock enrolled and off his own back, became a 4 time all american champ.
This is the start of an early pattern of being underestimated, or unappreciated for his talent, and having to prove people wrong.

2. He joins WWE, and while much is made of Kurt Angle's 'real' sporting pedigree, Brock is introduced as just another no-neck slab of beef. He proves popular with fans, but is treated poorly by the organisation. Again, its him vs those in control.

3. He leaves WWE, and will forever have the 'wrastlin' ' stigma attached to his credibility as an athlete. He joins the NFL on a trial pre-season try-out. Its a sport he has little experience of, having thrown his passion into his wrestling, and the try-out is unsuccessful, and very highly publicised. Another unfair blow is struck to his athletic reputation.

4. He takes stock, and decides that his experience, attributes, and continuing need to be recognised as a 'real' athlete, are all tailor made for MMA. He doesnt talk about it, he ups and goes for it, and wins his first fight in a smaller promotion. Things have started well.

5. His profile means that the UFC becomes a real option, and he says yes, but only for real with good fighters, and he starts with Mir, who technicaly won the fight, but did not beat the man. Does he get props for jumping in at the deep end? does he get any credit for nearly KO'ing a world champ? No, on the whole he gets a luke warm reception, and lots of talk about the WW freakin' E, and White telling him that the UFC is not a place to 'learn to fight'.

6. Undeterred, he signs up to fight Coleman, who is replaced with Herring- a young, up and coming legitemate contender with over 40 MMA fights. He takes the replacement, and prior to the fight, is respectful and talks of Herrings 'superior striking' and 'great experience'. How is this reciprocated? Herring laughs about having to fight him, calls him a 'steroided out wrastler', and generaly whines and b1tches that he is too good for a freakshow undercard. This from a guy who comes to the Octagon in a leather Duster and black stetson!?!?

Now think about the above. You are 30 years old, and have trained like a beast all your life. You have proved college coaches wrong, you have been stiffed by management even at times of success, you have worn your heart on your sleeve and had the courage to try, and fail, in public, and have recieved nothing but grief and derision from all quarters no matter how hard you try, and no matter what medals you win.

The win over Herring will have to get him some credibility as a fighter- there is no way it can't. that is why he was so OTT in the win celebrations, and as people accept him as for real, and as he begins to feel that he only has to fight his oponent, and not his history, so we may see the class you feel is missing.
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#401715 - 08/13/08 06:50 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
To me it wasn't that he won, that will get him accepted, it was how he won, he showed a lot of skill. Striking, knocked down Hearing with the first punch connected. Wrestling, controlled hearing on the ground all 3 rounds. He even reversed hearings guard twice.

What he did show was his lack of submission. As of right now I don't think he has any. Also his ground & pound needs work. He should have been able to put hearing away in the all three rounds.

As far as him being a showboat, well we who are not big Lesnar fans may have found it disgusting. But his home state crowd didn't think so, and that's who he was catering to, that's his fan base. They all loved it.

If you saw the fight, Brock really did ride that 'Texas crazy horse' right out of town.
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#401716 - 08/13/08 07:14 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: TeK9]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

What he did show was his lack of submission. As of right now I don't think he has any. Also his ground & pound needs work. He should have been able to put hearing away in the all three rounds.




I know what you mean- he looked to try an RNC once, but sort of thought 'ah screw it' and just went back to mauling him He doesn't seem to want to use 'hooks' with his legs/feet at the moment, and I wonder if this is because he is reluctant to 'tie up' and compromise that wonderful wrestling mobility he demonstrated?
Most fighters use their limbs to 'stick' to their oponent, and control them on the ground. Brock kind of just splats them and then holds them still- Herring 'should' have had the skill and technique to sweep or escape such 'industrial' manhandling with relative ease. Evidently its going to take more 'oomph' than a 6'3" 230lber can muster to deal with

Quote:

If you saw the fight, Brock really did ride that 'Texas crazy horse' right out of town.




He certainly did, and maybe Herring will have learned not to underestimate oponents in his future as well.
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#401717 - 08/13/08 07:47 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Excellent analysis, Cord. You should be a sports commentator. You > Bob Costas (via GnP if necessary, LOL).
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#401718 - 08/13/08 07:56 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Nice write up Cord and I give props to Lesnar for that, and I did prior and was a pro Lesnar person. However we are defined by our actions and his actions after the fight diminished how I felt about him. I don't think his antics afterward had anything to do with all that you said and was merely a portion of his personality coming out. At that moment I think everything went from his brain and he at that moment was riding a high that made him forget that to become seen as a legit fighter you need to act like one; sadly he failed that part.

If the fight was what it was and afterward he did not "ride" the Crazy Horse and then went "fishing" or pointing and laughing, but got up and just ignored him or waiting for Herring to congratulate him or wanting to be the bigger man and congratulate Herring for the fight; then I think Lesnar would be going in the right direction and more creditable as a MMA fighter. Respect has to be earned and that was not a good start. Winning a fight alone is not enough but how you win ... or how you lose, that defines a MMA fighter.
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#401719 - 08/13/08 08:07 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
Tom2199 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
Quote:


and as he begins to feel that he only has to fight his oponent, and not his history, so we may see the class you feel is missing.




hopefully, unfortunately we will have to put up with his obnoxiousness until then. i hope he starts to gel with the MMA crowd a bit better and forget all this WWE showboating.
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#401720 - 08/13/08 08:22 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Aesir Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/07
Posts: 397
Loc: Croydon, UK
In the fight I don't think Brock showed any real skill between him and an amateur fighter. He showed absolutly no ground game and I believe he just won because of his weight, I saw no real MMA skill in him..yet

I think he could be really good one day but at the moment I don't think his talent and lack of fights warrents him a place in the UFC.

With regard to all the smack talk before the fight I think much of it is hyped up and edited by the ufc to build up excitement/entertainment for the fight. Also I think a part of it is the fighters getting into the mindset for the upcoming fight.

I think that taking steroids to help them perform is wrong and if they did or still do then they shouldn't be allowed to compete unless the sport allows it in this sense I don't think Lesnar should be allowed to participate. Howevere I do not know if he actually used or not so that isn't for me to say.

Bottom line regardless of what goes on before a fight a sportsman should be gracious in his victory and not act like the pr*ck Lesnar did. I'm 18 and I wouldn't act like that after just beating someone in a competition(unless they were a friend )

With all the flack he is getting aswell I don't believe it bodes well for him and serious mma fans.

However I reckon part of the reason Dana letting him fight in the UFC is he hopes the wwe fans will transition over into mma and if that is the case then his antics will be encouraged which is a sad thing.

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#401721 - 08/14/08 06:38 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Cord]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'm sure there are quite a lot of people with similar circumstances. That isn't a green light to being a rampaging a$$hole.

I'll give him is due as a competitor and athlete. But credibility for being a legitimate fighter is one thing. Being a legitimate a$$hole is another.

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#401722 - 08/14/08 06:55 AM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Aesir]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

I don't think Brock showed any real skill between him and an amateur fighter



Apart from beating herring, lol

Quote:

I don't think his talent and lack of fights warrents him a place in the UFC.



So you think everyone should be slim built super technical fighters? he may not be as fine tuned as everyone else, but he has other advantages, which clearly work well for him. Skill isnt everything towards who will win.

Quote:

I think that taking steroids to help them perform is wrong



Why beat up on lesnar for this? how do you know hes even on steroids? hes half the size he was before so if anything hes off steroids. Dont see you complaining about randleman or bob sapp or sherk or tito?

Quote:

I'm 18 and I wouldn't act like that after just beating someone in a competition



Well after you win a fight in similar circumstances your opinion on that might mean a little more

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