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#401693 - 08/11/08 03:41 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Here is my opinion; Lesnar has no real skills.




That's an interesting take (while I have not seen the fight so I offer no opinion on his skills per say).

The reason I say it's interesting is the MMA sport puts such a huge emphasis on athletic ability, strength and stamina. There are many fighters I have seen who skills I find lacking, especially in the stand up game but they are so damn big, strong and just plain tuff they can get away with it. (this is not just pro fighters but even guys in my own school).

So when that aspect of training reaches it's inevitable end, you get a Lesner who with freakish strength and a less the great amount of skill, can come out on top.

I just find it interesting.
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#401694 - 08/11/08 04:08 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

The reason I say it's interesting is the MMA sport puts such a huge emphasis on athletic ability, strength and stamina. There are many fighters I have seen who skills I find lacking, especially in the stand up game but they are so damn big, strong and just plain tuff they can get away with it. (this is not just pro fighters but even guys in my own school).




I don't agree with that at all. It's comparitively rare to find pure physical "freaks" in MMA - by and large, they don't do well (Kimbo?). Most of the top guys are phenomenally skilled (GSP, Anderson Silva, Urijah Faber, Miguel Torres, etc), on top of being incredible athletes. Hell, BJ Penn won a lot of his fights DESPITE being in poor condition for being a pro.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that MMA is attribute-driven, as opposed to being technical. Remember that Lesnar LOST to Frank Mir, despite him completely over-powering Frank.

Quote:

So when that aspect of training reaches it's inevitable end, you get a Lesner who with freakish strength and a less the great amount of skill, can come out on top.




I do find the "freaks" interesting too, but that says nothing about the sport at all. Size and strength will matter in any sport.
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#401695 - 08/11/08 04:29 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
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Quote:

I don't agree with that at all. It's comparitively rare to find pure physical "freaks" in MMA




Well you are free to disagree, but you would be wrong

Seriously though, I was not speaking about top tier fighters as much as the sport as a whole. I have been to a few MMA gyms and we have a team at our school. In my experience the fighters are very athletic, more so then they are highly skilled, with a few exceptions of course.

I also think it's common where the students of these schools use their physical abilities to compensate for otherwise less then grea fighting skills (with the distinct exception of BJJ schools).

Kimo
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#401696 - 08/11/08 04:53 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Well you are free to disagree, but you would be wrong




*snort*

Quote:

Seriously though, I was not speaking about top tier fighters as much as the sport as a whole. I have been to a few MMA gyms and we have a team at our school. In my experience the fighters are very athletic, more so then they are highly skilled, with a few exceptions of course.




Well, I think that's true of most fighters at lower skill levels.
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#401697 - 08/11/08 05:13 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Well, I think that's true of most fighters at lower skill levels.




Well if that were the case I wouldn't have a point, and I most certainly have and make a very good point.
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#401698 - 08/11/08 05:51 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Kimo2007]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
From what I know of Lesnar he is training with some capable people however he is still in the infancy stage of martial arts training so he has "less then" basics at this point in my opinion. Yes he was a high end wrestler during his time as I've heard who for all I know used brute force then as well and it worked, but I just did not see it in the 2 UFC fights he had so far nor the one in the other venue. So far his freakish strength and size have been what he has been using and Frank Mir only got lucky that due to Lesnar's inexperience gave him the leg for him to latch onto and submit him as if you watch the video he wasn't doing good up until that point in the fight and it would have got worse.

Lesnar is using what he has available to him and I'm okay with that and as he gets more trained hopefully he can balance the two HOWEVER that does forgive the fact he was an A$$HOLE.

I did find it funny that Dana told him if he came to the UFC to learn to fight then go somewhere else. I suspect that is why Lesnar got some people to help out but it is my belief that he is still putting more effort into his workouts of lifting then his fight training. That is a hard thing to give up especially since he's been doing it so long; I find it difficult and I've only been doing it 11 years and not at the calibre he has. Finding a balance is hard and he will need to look for it if he wishes to gain any credible skill besides being monstrously strong.
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#401699 - 08/11/08 06:42 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Hes surprisingly quick for his size.


The first punch he threw was quicker than Heath was expecting, Heath didn't even have his hands up.

Thems my thoughts.
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#401700 - 08/11/08 06:58 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Spade]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Correct on both counts; fast guy for his size and Herring wasn't expecting it ... and wow what a punch it was. What was with the bull rush? Lesnar's head was down and luckily Herrings wasn't in the way otherwise they would have collided and Lesnar could have knocked himself out and also had the fight end in a disqualification.
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#401701 - 08/11/08 07:05 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Dereck]
Tom2199 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
Loc: England
i was wondering that myself Dereck, maybe it was for effect.
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#401702 - 08/11/08 08:44 PM Re: Heath Herring vs Brock Lesnar *spoiler* [Re: Tom2199]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Wow. Total domination by Lesnar. That first strike literally sent Herring ass over end across the ring. Brock's positional skill is very good, although I wondered why he wasn't trying to submit Heath from the back - or even get his hooks in. Lack of skill or just didn't need it? Tough to say. But better Heath than me!

Florian vs Huerta was another good fight. How about Kenny's sweep on Roger, with the punch follow-up? And Kenny's opening in the third round, with knees and takedowns, great stuff. LOL Roger spits at the crowd. Good aggressiveness by Roger, but Kenny was more precise.

GSP vs Fitch - How Fitch even made it out of the first round is amazing to me. GSP is simply on another level, striking, takedowns, positional control.......speechless. George's striking combinations (spinning back fist!) are incredible. Props to Fitch for surviving 5 rounds, but no question - GSP won that one by a mile.
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