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#401510 - 07/09/08 05:43 PM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: harlan]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:


The sheer joy of being outdoors, and enjoying nature, and cultivating our instinctual nature to hunt and observe nature...it's a birthright and necessary for our wellbeing. As a culture, we have become dissassociated with our sensory selves...and being in nature and interacting with those that live that life is good for us. 'Hunting' doesn't necessarily have to end with a kill to be of value.




Exactly!. The finest, most attuned human hunters in the world never fire a shot- they are wildlife camera men and conservationists who track and monitor wildlife.
i would prefer to see the fruits of their efforts looking through a lense, than what happens the other end of a scope.

In Africa, there is a thriving industry geared around conservationist safari's, where you take your camera, not a rifle. This then gives local humans a financial reason to conserve their animals instead of poaching them.

If we lived in a society where we had to hunt for meat, then I would do so- that would be in keeping with nature. To hunt as some sort of pseudo-spiritual process, and take a wild animal out of its environment, when you can get that meat from farmed sock in the shop down the road, just seems completely unnecessary to me.

Also, if you want to go ancestral and primitive, go out there with a spear or bow and bolts made in the forrest. There is nothing primal about a $2000 hunting rifle.
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#401511 - 07/09/08 08:51 PM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: Cord]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Cord,

Naw. One should not be ashamed of hunting and I’ll grant that the hardest kind of hunting is with a bow for large game. Have to be within about 20 meters. Lot’s of skill.

As for the farmed meet, that is something where I personally know a couple of vegetarians who have no problem with hunters who eat what they catch, but do have a problem with those who get their meet from “food factories” and the indignities that are suffered on animals there.

And, no, I don’t think stalking an animal with a camera is the same as hunting. Not the same expectation, nor the same reasons for the pursuit, nor the same rewards though they overlap. And I am a believer that if you are not a vegetarian and have a problem with hunting one’s own food…and of course killing it, the complaint is bereft of much of its steam. I too am for conservation---you have to remember here, that at least in the States, much of the early conservation movement, including large parcels of preserved areas in national parks were the work of hunters and politicians who were hunters.

Not saying your perspective is wrong, just that it isn’t as complete as I think it might be. Of course we may disagree and agree to do so.

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#401512 - 07/09/08 11:48 PM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: Cord]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Cord, that's over the top imo.

Can't find most hunted meat at the store(squirrel, rabbit, deer). I'm not content with such a limited variety.

Took the kids fishing today. I caught two small bass and let them go. Tried to help the kids catch some,but it never happened. We saw several lake turtles, a water snake, and three deer. One fawn was only a few weeks old if that. Very cool time.
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#401513 - 07/10/08 12:27 AM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I'm with Cord and harlan on this. I don't see any 'fun' in killing animals.

I'd do it for meat if I had to, and I don't have a problem with hunting vermin (we have introduced species like rabbit who wreck havoc on our native ecosystem). I'd hunt any vermin (without any qualms at all in the case of introduced species) to help the environment - and eat the prey if it were appropriate to do so. But I personally don't take pleasure in the act of killing.

I quite like the Kalahari Bushman custom of 'apologising' to prey after it is killed - not from any moral or logical perspective (it's clearly a pointless exercise), but because it shows the spirit in which the animal has been hunted.

As to the 'don't eat farmed food because it is produced in food factories' - I avoid caged eggs and other 'unethical' meat as much as I can. But there's a reality of feeding our burgeoning population which is hard to avoid. I have done work for our meat industry authority here and seen the process. Not pretty, but in some cases unavoidable from a logistical and economic perspective. Having said this, abbatoir slaughtering doesn't have to be done inhumanely. As a student I once worked on a farm where the farmer slaughtered a lamb for our dinner - very quickly and humanely. It was over and he was skinning it before I knew what was happening (he seemed to do it all in the time it took me to 'drench' one or 2 sheep).

The fact that I'm a carnivore prepared to eat "food factory meat" doesn't change the fact that (a) I wouldn't enjoy the act of killing an animal, even if I did choose to kill one; and (b) I'm not happy killing wild 'non-vermin' fauna who manage to cling to existence in a deteriorating global ecosystem.

And whoopin' and hollerin' because you killed something (when you're not starving) is, to me, unseemly. I don't even like people posing with fish they've caught: it seems macabre... (I respect those who disagree on this point - it's a personal reaction).

So I don't disagree with fishing or hunting - it's the type of animal and the spirit in which it is killed.

That said, if I went hunting for rabbit with Brian I wouldn't be all gloomy and depressed. I'd do what I had to do and come back to enjoy the meal. I'd enjoy the outdoors aspect. However I'd try to show the animal - whatever it is - a bit of respect...
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#401514 - 07/10/08 06:54 AM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I'll bet you'd show respect. LOL! Ever see a 200 lb, 10 pt buck up close and personal? It's all 'bambi', until he gets a good look at you, snorts, and you know he means business.

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#401515 - 07/10/08 07:22 AM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I'm sure. Same thing here in Oz. A big roo can stand 7 feet tall and rip you to shreds with its clawed hind legs (while balancing on it's tail). And yes, up till then they look sweet too.
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#401516 - 07/10/08 01:59 PM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: butterfly]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Butterfly, remember in all of this that I am an omnivore, and I believe that humans are not 'superior' animals with any extra 'rights' or privelidges than other creatures.
What our dominance and self awareness does give us however, is greater responsibility.
In a world where creatures are farmed, bred in captivity, and slaughtered in controlled and humane fashion, there is no place, as far as I am concerned, for taking the life of a wild animal.

A couple of years ago, some zoologists found a 'pocket' of completely uncharted rainforest, and became the very first humans (as far as anyone could tell) to set foot in it. They were amazed not only to find several new species, but also the interaction possible between them and the animals- there was much less 'instinctive' flight and avoidance of the humans. The animals had not developed an inbred fear of man, as they had not been exposed to our ways.

Every time I see a rabbit or a badger or a fox, I smile, and when they scurry away in instinctive fear, I feel ashamed to be human. The natural world recognises us as one of the only species to kill without need.

On the other side of the coin, I have sat feeding black squirrels at one of our properties at work, its immensely theraputic, and over time, there is one in particular who will sit one pace away from my foot while he eats what I have given him. So we sit together, and eat trail mix together.
i will bet my entire years salary that I feel every bit as close to nature in those moments as anyone watching a deer bleed out, tied to the bonnet of their pick up truck.

i like my way better.
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#401517 - 07/10/08 02:50 PM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: Cord]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
<<In a world where creatures are farmed, bred in captivity, and slaughtered in controlled and humane fashion, there is no place, as far as I am concerned, for taking the life of a wild animal.>>

i feel less guilty eating wild caught tuna that has had some semblance of a good life compared to a factory farmed chicken. i realise a trawler caught wild tuna is not caught with any triumphalism as a line caught one. but a fish is incapable of determining the sentiment of who that is inflicting its demise, in fact what difference is there. either way the tuna is dead for human consumption.
i see nothing wrong with shooting wild rabbits to eat, i certainly take issue with people who try to run them down in cars for fun
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"Irony is mainly used by the British in in order to distinguish themselves from Americans, which worked very well until the Americans had more guns than them."

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#401518 - 07/10/08 03:21 PM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: grumbleweed]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

i feel less guilty eating wild caught tuna that has had some semblance of a good life compared to a factory farmed chicken.




Which is more cruell Releasing an animal from a miserable life, or snuffing the good life of a free animal?

'Vermin' is a human term used to define living creatures that hamper human commerce based around agriculture.

Wolves and Bears were 'vermin' in Britain, till they were made extinct. Big Game are merely 'vermin' to the african herding tribes.

The only real 'vermin' on earth is man.


Edited by Cord (07/10/08 03:21 PM)
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#401519 - 07/10/08 03:36 PM Re: Outdoorsmen/women? [Re: Cord]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
<<Which is more cruell Releasing an animal from a miserable life>>

better still- not put the animal in that miserable existance to begin with ....quorn isn't that bad
and god knows i've battled with my conscience to quit meat eating over the years and deep down i know catch and release fishing i take part in serves no purpose and is cruel. but i gave up neither of the two ....but being a beta male i dont catch much and fishing is just an excuse to mess about with lots of fishing tackle and shoot the breeze with my dad and other fishing mates!
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