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#401260 - 07/04/08 06:06 AM For the Matsumura Seito crowd
Victor Smith Offline
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Sensei Chuck Chandler- 8th Dan- Ni Pai Po Kata
In this video Sensei Chandler is performing his Ni Pia Po Kata at the 2007 International Martial Arts Symposium in Columbia SC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP_RYLE9bwQ&feature=user
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#401261 - 07/04/08 10:47 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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It's interesting but im not sure how it's actually connected to the Seito Matsumura system, historically or indeed technically.

Chandler Sensei clearly knows his stuff, but I think his development (certainly over the last 15 years) has been more into the Hakutsuru 'group' of kata as opposed to Seito Matsumura from Hohan Soken. (which of course he does have a strong background in).

Nice find Victor.
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#401262 - 07/04/08 03:51 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Jim,

I'm sure you're right, but I tend to think of that crowd as being interchangeable, just an outsiders view.

The form is most definately in some crane lineage.

I can't do what he does, but see a lot of 'dead' movement that would be fun to exploit.

I've never understood movement without what I would call martial intent.

For example compare his execution with Dr. Yang Jwing Ming (YMAA White Crane and Yang Tai Chi Chaun).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0J6A7T3laI&feature=related
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#401263 - 07/04/08 04:28 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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I think many of the Okinawan 'crane' forms were researched and developed by Yabiku Sensei some years back (hence their strong link to many Seito karateka),

a whole bunch of them were presented by him, Chandler Sensei and Lindsey Sensei in the early 90's by Pinewood productions.

nothing wrong with the kata IMO, good solid martial arts,

but im not convinced outside of the Soken Sensei Hakutsuru if any of them have much validity within the Seito Matsumura system, regards lineage or indeed technique executuion.

Of course thats a wild generalism, based on my own limited experience.

My own perosnal feeling is that Soken Sensei or Nabe Sensei developed the 'family' Hakutsuru based on their own interpretation of white crane, possibly from Gokenki, or indeed from Matsumura Sensei (in Nabe Sensei case).

But I don't train Hakutsuru yet, so until I get to it my research and experience is very limited.
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#401264 - 07/05/08 09:28 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
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After watching Yang Jwing Ming, Mr Chandlers movements seem virtually uncoordinated, although I can see that he is a very strong and capable martial artist and I'm sure the same would be true for most people.

Victor I think I see what you mean by dead movement, in my humble opinion this is not a very well constructed form. It's applications seem

Karate based White Crane forms seem to me like a great way to add a mystical trump card to your style. One more excuse to say "I have a secret so I'm more special than you". Just my opinion.

And those stances are way to long to be practical
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#401265 - 07/05/08 12:30 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
Quattro Offline
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Quote:


Karate based White Crane forms seem to me like a great way to add a mystical trump card to your style. One more excuse to say "I have a secret so I'm more special than you". Just my opinion.





Quoted for the truth

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#401266 - 07/05/08 02:19 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Quattro]
shoshinkan Offline
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I agree that the white crane line has been used to sell systems,

I also believe that the white crane systems had alot to do with the development of all Okinawan Karate and therefore it has validity as a study aid for the historically minded karateka.

I don't think there is anything special about it, it's just an added dimension to the art which is mostly forgotten in modern karatedo with it's emphasis on sport and looking good.
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#401267 - 07/05/08 03:23 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
WuXing Offline
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Here's someone performing the ming he quan version of the same form

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlw9j3GzXBM

and for reference, here is the shito ryu version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8rAt5hKVDM

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#401268 - 07/05/08 06:58 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: WuXing]
Shonuff Offline
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Notice how the Shito has a "crane" stance, while the Whooping crane version doesn't.
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#401269 - 07/06/08 04:19 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu5JXe08ghU

just stumbled across this, not sure again of it's relevance but an interesting kata for sure.
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#401270 - 07/06/08 04:20 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
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Chandler Sensei Hakutsuru Mei kata, from the Pinewood videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXEPSGkiRfc&feature=related
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#401271 - 07/07/08 01:04 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
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These last two kata look distinctly like amalgams of different forms.

Do we know where these have all sprung from, which are old which are new etc?
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#401272 - 07/07/08 07:47 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu5JXe08ghU

just stumbled across this, not sure again of it's relevance but an interesting kata for sure.




Of all the Hakutsuru kata (which seem an amalgam of Kume village and Gokenki variations with some silly moves added) this is the only one I would consider studying. I agree with Victor that the ni pai po clip has a lot of 'dead' movement. This hakutsuru seems highly functional - even the 'crane' stance (for a change)...
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#401273 - 07/07/08 07:54 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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From what I've heard the hakutsuru of Kume village was researched by Hanshi Pat McCarthy.

The others, I don't know.
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#401274 - 07/08/08 12:15 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Looks like a solid performance of a kata, but it sure has a whole lot more in it than just "crane."
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#401275 - 07/08/08 06:17 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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I see lots of Nijushiho, some chinto, kusanku, what looks like mock kungfu (eagle claw maybe) and some distinctly Goju ryu movements.

Despite this it is an interesting and appealing form, much more so than any of the other supposed crane forms I've seen. Though I think if you know any two of the ones I mentioned above there's not a lot to learn in this, but I could be way off base.
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#401276 - 07/12/08 01:13 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
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Loc: Derry, NH
Jusr for the record:

Okinawa

Matayoshi performing Okaku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmASeBvCq5M
Hakkucho Kata - Matayoshi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=encHYcCQgxc&feature=related
Matayoshi Shinpo performing Kingai Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89_cUe-Sjkk

Kusano Sensei performing Hakucho Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzVdNiZUxmc

Odo Seikichi Sensei, Hakutsuru Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD78dP428ec

Okaku sho Kata Yabiku Takaya
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltYWnXECZY4&feature=related

Happoren or 8 linked steps Karate's version of MingHe Babulien
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV1jD7_0WRw

Tou'on-ryu inheritor, Kanzaki Shigekazu [who studied under Kyoda Juhatsu], performing their version of Go Kenki's Nepai kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkDFzJjlGiw
Chinsu Kata - Sakugawa Family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5BKTfHue5g

Japan

Shito Ryu Kata Hakkaku Performed by: Teruo Hayashi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkeEB6DOLzs
Nipaipo Shito Ryu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8rAt5hKVDM
Toshio Morita senior student of Tadahiko Ohtsuka performing Happoren in Goju Kensha Hombu Tokyo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx3L9YoemP0&feature=related





United States

Hakutsuru No Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOyhgwc5T7M
Hakutsuru of Kume Village
Patrick Donahue Shihan, of the Brattleboro School of Budo in VT performing the Kume Village version of Hakutsuru at his dojo in 2001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu5JXe08ghU

Hakutsuru Mei - Charles Chandler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXEPSGkiRfc
Chuck Chandler- 8th Dan- Ni Pai Po Kata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP_RYLE9bwQ
Hakutsuru - Tony Sandoval
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUEqKCMjWzM
Ron Lindsey performs HakuCho Dai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R63saub7Zg
crane kata called Papuren
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPZfbx1vIGM






Puerto Rico
Renshi Edgardo Martinez is part or Team M.I.K. (Martinez Isshinryu Karate) from Puerto Rico. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekY04LXqf7c
Uruguay
Kensei no Hakutsuru - J. E. Castro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY24b6xPQOI&feature=related
Australia
Ron Goninan Crane Hakutsuru White Crane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwSz961XkZk&feature=related
And the winner is - Ad for Japanese Sake, Hakutsuru (White Crane).

1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbBReLQZPrU&feature=related
2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7evFoWkKqE


Tiawan and china
Fujian Quanfa master, Guo Kongxi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw6GxQ84thw
Fujian Hequan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF7hh_Uiim0
Hequan's Ershiba [Nepai] "28-Steps"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF9HHry_xHM
Minghe Quan's Ershiba [Nepai] "28-Steps"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlw9j3GzXBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jZxKoET4Vg
Whooping Crane "Tiger Crane" SanChin/Sanzhan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLog9TMFfo8&feature=related
Old crane master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04vzxQU78QE
Southern Lohan Babulien
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN6gU68W-W0&feature=related
Crane Fists
1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jq91AbX1aY&feature=related
2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyHqZ9RAIHI&feature=related


James Sumarac performing White Crane form Happoren for Taiwan Television
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARlxgPYUOaY

Tiger vs Crane Hung Gar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQUYxqUO1b4&feature=related
chiu chi ling performs the tiger crane hung gar set,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA&feature=related
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#401277 - 07/14/08 08:44 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
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Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Now if you've taken the time to watch all of the crane kata, where do you find a common link? If all of them are Okinawan, were there Okinawan crane stylist hiding behind every bush and tree?

Gives one pause?
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#401278 - 07/14/08 03:28 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
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Taking the "Okinawan" forms which are actually different from one another and putting them together would certainly make an interesting system to train in.
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#401279 - 07/14/08 04:35 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
duanew Offline
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Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 326
Loc: MN
As a Matsumura Seito then Kenshin Kan then Matsumura Kenpo guy who's had the opportunity to train with Tony Sandoval and Chuck Chandler on a seminar basis only -this is my opinion. I have also had the priviledge to train with Ron Lindsey on a seminar basis.
I respect and admire all three men greatly for their martial arts ability. All three gave me the opportunity to understand things much better with their ability to explain it to me in English since so many times I have found myself try to understand an explanation in broken English and since I have no ability to speak Japanese or Hogen. I thank all three for their efforts in bringing that greater understanding to me.
As far as the Crane kata goes...it has been for sometime the Holy Grail that many have sought. I remember when Kise Sensei performed the Crane kata for my instructor back in the 80's on video. He had to promise not to reproduce it and only a few were even allowed to view it (he unlike others kept his word).
As time passed different trends have struck karate-Kyusho, then the Crane kata. With all kinds of people jumping on the bandwagon teaching this Crane kata and that Crane Kata. Knowing or thinking you know the kata is great. But if you don't understand it, if you don't know the bunkai then it's all just a pretty dance-regardless of the kata you are doing.
I don't know the kata, I don't know the bunkai other than that which was shown to me. After 30 + years I can perform 20+ kata. I can do 10 of them. I understand 3 of them -maybe-others might disagree. Each year is a struggle to retain what I know, deepen my understanding and to make the kata mine.
It is said that Soken Sensei said if you know the Naifanchi kata that is all the kata you need to know. I'm still working on it.
To those of you who choose to chase the Crane good luck, it's an elusive bird.
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#401280 - 07/17/08 12:38 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: duanew]
chusauli Offline
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Registered: 05/30/06
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For the Crane people: Where is the Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit? Why so stiff and tense?

The Chinese sets are smooth and fluid, what happened?
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#401281 - 07/17/08 01:35 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
shoshinkan Offline
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I think the difference between Chinese sets and Okinawan kata is mainly grounded in 2 areas-

1. Okinawan kata tend not to be smooth and fluid (only a few exceptions).
2. Okinawan kata tend to be simple in relation to many chinese sets (I don't say that negativly either).

Theres a bit of a joke going around about karateka doing Crane sets badly (I do not refer to anyone specific here),

I think it has merit as the karateka, generally has a very different martial training.

This is why I don't learn Crane sets but just toy with Crane concepts and training mewthods to support my shorin ryu.
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#401282 - 07/17/08 02:11 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
chusauli Offline
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Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 6
Thank you!

I think White Crane had a great influence on Southern Fist in general, including Ngo Cho, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, and Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Kingai Ryu and of course people who studied at the Kenkyukai with GoKenki.
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#401283 - 07/17/08 02:17 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
chusauli Offline
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Posts: 6
I do think the Okinawans further "Okinawa-ized" the sets, then the Japanese "Nippon-ized" them.

Basically, Sanzhan, Babulian and Nipai are a major part of Ming He Quan. Maybe just concentrate on those sets and link them as one long set...Forget about the Hakucho, Hakutsura, etc.


Edited by chusauli (07/17/08 02:19 PM)
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#401284 - 07/17/08 05:30 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
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my intention is to focus simply on the Seito Matsumura Hakutsuru, when im given the kata.

Im to busy with our kata Pinan, Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto, Useishi and Kusanku to worry about other crane forms etc etc.

my feeling is that the 'crane' in shorin ryu is likely a different system from the crane in say Goju or Uechi ryu anyhow, or the Long Fist elemet is more prevalent - but it is difficult to be accurate with so much change to the systems, and my limited resources and experience.

Good to meet you Robert and welcome to the forum.
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#401285 - 07/18/08 07:08 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
harlan Offline
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Posts: 6665
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That is a fascinating question. As this/these ideas are so central (or known) to CMA/IMA...what happened? Incomplete transmission perhaps (for whatever reasons)?

Quote:

For the Crane people: Where is the Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit? Why so stiff and tense?

The Chinese sets are smooth and fluid, what happened?



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#401286 - 07/18/08 07:37 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

For the Crane people: Where is the Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit? Why so stiff and tense?




I'm not entirely impressed with this paradigm anyway - I wonder whether it really does provide a useful forumla...

Quote:

The Chinese sets are smooth and fluid, what happened?




Eh? Yong chun is as "fluid" as tensho or uechi ryu. It is different - not more fluid. Ditto ngo cho kun. The type of movement often has less "focus", but crane being more "fluid" is imho incorrect.
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#401287 - 07/18/08 09:25 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Personally I have found that Crane stylists learn greater fluidity in application as opposed to their particular performances of forms. This is IMO due to crane being designed for use in a different range to Karate.

One of the things that highlights a specifically close quarter system is the amount of techniques performed while stationary as opposed to techniques performed with a step. As the crane forms advance more techniques are added between steps. Practice of such sets increases the fluidity of hand techniques which combines with sticking training to teach the student to make smaller more movements and faster adaptations in close quarters.

The whole float sink spit swallow thing is a useful way to look at movements to find other dimensions to them and help refine how you use your body to generate them, however as a defining point of a system it is far too generic.

The biggest disparity I find between crane and Karate is in the use of the waist. Karate simply doesn't make use of the waist like crane does and this small detail alters the whole concept.
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#401288 - 07/18/08 09:44 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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On the other hand, I'm not a fan of the "shaking" used in many crane styles (where the hips and waist shake a lot). I know the theory, but it doesn't appeal, particularly with my karate and internal arts which use hips, but don't keep shaking after the compeletion of the technique.

As I said, crane movements can look distinctly Chinese, but I don't think they are any more "fluid" than, say, goju or uechi. Just different. The "stiffness" thing is inaccurate when comparing southern Chinese forms like crane.

On the other hand, if you were to compare karate of any kind with either the internal arts of taiji or bagua, perhaps longfist Shaolin styles or any competition wushu this is another ballgame.
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#401289 - 07/18/08 11:45 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

One of the things that highlights a specifically close quarter system is the amount of techniques performed while stationary as opposed to techniques performed with a step. As the crane forms advance more techniques are added between steps. Practice of such sets increases the fluidity of hand techniques which combines with sticking training to teach the student to make smaller more movements and faster adaptations in close quarters.




Actually I disagree with you here Shonuff. What do you think the steps in karate are for? In fact, many of them are very short leg techniques which require very close distance to apply.
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#401290 - 07/18/08 10:44 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
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Sho and all,

Frankly looking at all of the Hakutsuru/Crane/whatever video, the only performance I see demonstrating correct power and flow between all of them is the younger Mataoyshi performing Okaku http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmASeBvCq5M. I've also seen performances of his Okinawan students doing same and a friend in the States who trained with him. His students evidence Matayoshi's own abilities.

In my mind it brings the method of transmission to question. Did the performes spend enough time (I suggest many years) with their instructor to do more than learn where to put the foot and the hand, to allow the correct transfer of energy in movement to develop, or was the time so short (clinics) or even more abstract (videos) to cause less of the original movement to be retained?

I don't know just question, especially compared to Matayoshi's students efforts.

Then again perhaps the original source didn't have much either. All systems, even Chinese ones, are not created equal after all.

Somehow I seem to remember a quote attributed to Matayoshi that the only purpose of Crane was for health, not for fighting after all. If I am correct that doesn't necessarily apply to anyone elses Crane after all.

On the whole all of the Crane is very confusing, the Chinese systems (some of them IMO) seem to be a better place to train instead of Okinawan ones....
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#401291 - 07/19/08 12:01 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
While I respect my crane friends' choice of art and see there is a lot to what they do, I don't see any particular benefit arising from crane that isn't addressed in, say, goju or uechi ryu. The shaking stuff I've said I don't agree with. Certainly arts like Yong Chun baihe don't feature this shaking.

The hakutsuru of Mayatoshi and others looks more Okinawan in style (early Kume village stuff mixed with Gokenki influence and then some silly modern additions for "aesthetic" appeal). I don't think they are related to Chinese crane except for Gokenki's influence and some more modern "cross-pollination".

I think that if you look at the Mayatoshi or the "Kume village" kata you can see some useful karate-style techniques. On the whole, a worthwhile art if done properly. But less to do with Chinese crane than goju or uechi. So the name is probably the only real link!
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#401292 - 07/19/08 06:23 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Quote:

One of the things that highlights a specifically close quarter system is the amount of techniques performed while stationary as opposed to techniques performed with a step. As the crane forms advance more techniques are added between steps. Practice of such sets increases the fluidity of hand techniques which combines with sticking training to teach the student to make smaller more movements and faster adaptations in close quarters.




Actually I disagree with you here Shonuff. What do you think the steps in karate are for? In fact, many of them are very short leg techniques which require very close distance to apply.




This is true some of the time Med, but I don't think all the steps can be passed off as such. Also that would seem to suggest that in close quarters when the fists are flying one can afford to shoot of small leg techniques in the same beat as chinese close arts throw hand techniques. It just doesn't work that way.

Shuri based Karate has much close technique, it is very good in close but it was not designed for it.
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#401293 - 07/19/08 06:24 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Sho and all,

Frankly looking at all of the Hakutsuru/Crane/whatever video, the only performance I see demonstrating correct power and flow between all of them is the younger Mataoyshi performing Okaku http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmASeBvCq5M.




Correct by what standard?

Also I seem to remember Unyu pontificating about Hakutsuru and pointing out that it was only ever a supplementary study and that Gojushiho was the highest kata in the system and contained everything relevant to MS Shorin ryu.


Edited by Shonuff (07/19/08 06:26 PM)
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#401294 - 07/19/08 08:53 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Sho,

I should have elaborated further, my standard is my own experience at looking at the arts from many instructors I've trained with.

I like the connection of body movement Matayoshi represents in his crane, I like how his movement style was transmitted to the video I've seen of his students in Okinawa, and I also found it present in my friends practice in Massachusetts.

The video record is far from a perfect tool, just representing an instant in time, and most of them really weren't filmed for us to review.

I don't draw my distinction by comparing it to Chinese Crane systems.

My friend mainly is a Goju stylist who mostly trained with Matayoshi Sensei in Kobudo, but he did study his Crane technique too.

Tactially I don't conisider any practice lesser or greater than any other. Some are technically more demanding, such as a Gojushiho kata, but in execution any one technique correctly done should be enough, the kata training something more than just techniques IMO.
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#401295 - 07/23/08 07:03 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
debushi Offline
Banned

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 11
Being a Seito guy who trained with Lindsey I can say that first off the video of Lindsey doing Hakkucho is old and outmoded. It's from the 1980's I think, maybe early 90's. His crane forms have been refined since then with the help of real White Crane Chuan Fa shifu. He is a much more relaxed and effective practitioner now, even by his own admission.

Victor is under the impression that what he knew of Lindsey's group and Lindsey himself from over a decade ago still holds true today. He has said he can't or won't learn anything from him. His loss. What Ron does is a lot like what Suenaka, Kise and Nishihira did/do. If you want a glimpse of real old style karate, he is one of the few guys in the whole world who has the knowledge AND the skill to demonstrate "koryu" karate.

The Lindsey crane forms are supplementary and a system all their own. The kata of the Seito system are inherently influenced by crane among other sources. The highest kata of the Seito lineage is the Hakutsusru, but Kusanku is the most advanced form. If Gojushiho was mentioned as Seito's highest form then that was wrong. I don't think that was ever said though. Gojushiho is a higher level form, Yondan, but it is not the highest Shorin kata. Everyone knows that title belongs to Kusanku and some Seito guys will say Hakutsuru.

What Chuck Chandler is doing looks stiff and un-Crane like. His stances are locked out and too long and wide, especially for a short guy. His shoulders are too far back, his movements are rigid and he lacks koshi as well as any semblance of rising, floating, sinking, spitting or swallowing. He is shoulder locked and spastic looking. He's an alright karate-ka, but he does his supposed crane like a modern karate guy. He was booted from Lindsey's group and he has done many questionable things since then. He is a con-man at heart according to many.

Shoshinkan has it right. The Matsumura Kata are all you need. When I trained with Lindsey, two of us would train Seito and dozens would come from all over to supplement their karate which consisted of many systems/dojo in order to "enhance" their understanding of karate. The crane forms he taught the others were very effective when applied, but used the same principles seen in Matsumura Orthodox Sui-di. Lindsey made a subsystem based on his experience in other art forms, and the forms seen now- Nijuken, Hakutsuru Mei, Nipaipo, etc.- are his versions of forms either in existence or formulated with other Shifu help.

He encouraged my training partner and I to stick to the Seito techniques and form, so we never even gave Hakutsuru a second thought. For several years we trained only Seito not Matsumura Seito Hakutsuru Karate Jutsu. He encouraged us to train the original. There is one true Seito Hakutsuru form. The forms trained in that crane group are separate from that, but utilize Seito principles as well as White Crane Chuan Fa.

Again, he told two of us that the Orthodox way was all you ever needed. I have seen him actually apply techniquues from his Crane kata in real time with resistance, so I know it is real and effective. He did the same thing with his Orthodox kata analysis and application. He has been training everyday for 40 years now, so he can use his karate unlike any I've ever seen, but that's just my opinion. The guy can fight for sure, plus he's big, smart, fast and strong as an ox.

The Matayoshi love is all good, but I guarantee you guys Lindsey is even rarer than that gem. He's beyond most sensei at this point. Anyone who has trained with him in the last decade will tell you this regardless of what system they train or trained in.

Thanks for the Seito vids, but you really have very little there. Good try though...

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#401296 - 07/23/08 08:20 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: debushi]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
As a minor hobby I keep track of what's being posted in a very wide range of arts. I don't post them, just note them for my own thoughts and share them for discussion.

I have enough to keep me busy in my own studies for lifetimes which is why I am not seeking anything from anybody. As I haven't trained with the people you mention, nor have you trained with the people who've shared with me.

That leaves little to discuss meaningfully.

I find enough crane in my tai chi work and am willing to use it as readily as the rest of my studies.

May we each find our peace.

And what shows up next, hard to say it seems if it's been filmed there's a race to put it out there.

So from that perspective, we can only review what is shared, and tomorrow it's guaranteed there will be more.
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#401297 - 07/23/08 11:11 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
debushi Offline
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Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 11
Vic:
I don't presume to know how you've trained, but I have seen every possible variation of karate, Isshin or otherwise, from here to Asia. I have also observed numerous kata and traning vids on this site/elsewhere and I can say for some certainty that it looks as if everyone has the same basic template for karate training. This includes those versed in various forms of Matsumura Seito. The nuances are missing like in that Chandler video. Improper stepping, fist formations, stances, constipated execution, straight rear legs in a small forward stance, knees locked in narrow stances, elbows splayed out away from the body, use of modern sport figting terms and techniques for kata analysis, the list goes on-and-on.

The lack of deep and authentic Okinawan style training is apparent. It is kind of disheartening to see that those who have really trained with old style sensei will probably never transmit this true karate knowledge on to many people. The truth is that things worth real value are rare as are those who recognize this and transmit it accordingly. I mean the people I know who understand Okinawan Karate will never open a school or teach outside of their personal circle. Not everyone should learn the rawer or truer old forms of karate.

What I'm getting at is it's rare to find a virtuoso piano tecaher who can do and teach. You know, walk the talk. Trying to glean lessons from videos and threads is just ridiculous. You'll get diddly from it. You can watch a video of Hohan Soken performing kata at 80 years old and claim that is how he always did his kata, but the context and timeframe are out of wack. Beyond bunkai for a movement, you are looking at personalized interpretation of a kata he did differently at a younger age.

So again, this fascination with trying to discern anything from two-dimensional images, moving or static, is beyond naive. You are just kidding yourself if you think video or popularity has anything to do with real world validity, especially when it comes to Okinawan Karate. I'm not saying that if you post vids of yourself you might be weak, but what I am saying is that the majority of the karate vids available give you very little in the way of understanding old style karate.

What people also need to understand is that any type of transmission without actual training, via books, mags or whatever media is superficial at best and good for nothing except to give you a small inkling of a system. It is the Okinawan and Chinese way to only transmit the guts and reality of it all to loyal and diligent students. Most dojo will let one observe, but the sensei usually have a problem with non-students sitting in on classes uninvited. This goes back to a time when only a select few were allowed to train. Most do a karate influenced by mass instruction at the grade school level (Itosu-Ha, Mabuni-Ha and Miyagi-ha). Most of that, not all, is diluted karate training compared to the old ways. High ranking Isshin Ryu practitioners themselves have admitted that Tatsuo O'Sensei failed to transmit a lot of the old ways to the myriad students he trained.

Without real training in a system how the heck would you know what you were looking at anyway?

By the way, Tai Chi Chuan especially of the Manqing line is awesome fighting stuff. Too bad not many realize this. It is beyond most White Crane IMHO. So you don't need to look elsewhere.

Again, good try but you can gather very little from those videos.

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#401298 - 08/07/08 12:34 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: debushi]
RedRider Offline
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 7
Just so you know, Lindsey Sensei and Chuck Chandler reconciled last year and Mr. Lindsey considers him a friend now. Please have the facts straight prior to posting anything that could hurt that friendship.

Mr. Lindsey asks that his name not be mentioned when one is speaking derogatorily about anyone, anyone's martial art, or fighting ability.

Also Brian, Sensei asks that you call him ASAP, he would like to speak with you. He doesn't have your number or email and says that he hasn't seen you in about 3 years.

Ronnie

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#401299 - 08/07/08 08:20 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: RedRider]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Brian aka Unsu aka Unshu aka Debushi... How many multiple online personalities does one poster need?

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#401300 - 08/07/08 10:52 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Barad]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Don't know...but that sure would make an interesting entry in the 'forum history/soap opera' thread.

Quote:

Brian aka Unsu aka Unshu aka Debushi... How many multiple online personalities does one poster need?



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#401301 - 08/07/08 06:24 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: RedRider]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Just so you know, Lindsey Sensei and Chuck Chandler reconciled last year and Mr. Lindsey considers him a friend now. Please have the facts straight prior to posting anything that could hurt that friendship.

Mr. Lindsey asks that his name not be mentioned when one is speaking derogatorily about anyone, anyone's martial art, or fighting ability.

Also Brian, Sensei asks that you call him ASAP, he would like to speak with you. He doesn't have your number or email and says that he hasn't seen you in about 3 years.

Ronnie




Good to know Brian's sensei doesn't condone his trollish actions on this forum.

Brian, get back to R3al Karate training!! 3yrs!!
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#401302 - 08/08/08 05:10 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: RedRider]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:


Also Brian, Sensei asks that you call him ASAP, he would like to speak with you. He doesn't have your number or email and says that he hasn't seen you in about 3 years.

Ronnie





Sounds like Brian been a naughty boy-call Sensei now!

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#401303 - 08/20/08 09:11 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Some actual white crane kungfu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iklKt5mnwkE - Sam Chien
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x946TeAodg - Ti Goo Lip Chiok

And for all those who can't figure out how you apply sticking to fighting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqXm8HYbWkA

Two forms and some application, and not a one legged stance in sight.
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