FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 46 Guests and 2 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Shanktotheright, royal, bobgalle100011, agenonline, TooNice
22862 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
THEFOREVERMAN 3
MattJ 2
royal 2
Dobbersky 2
cxt 1
April
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
New Topics
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by Marcus Charles
03/24/14 04:39 PM
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by Dobbersky
03/20/14 05:45 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
AKK kata question
by
09/04/05 01:27 PM
Recent Posts
Fighting On Saturday!!!
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:22 AM
Muay Thai Seminar with Greg Nelson - Marcus Charle
by THEFOREVERMAN
04/16/14 08:20 AM
AKK kata question
by MattJ
04/04/14 05:45 PM
Judo Olympic Games 1964 Tokyo, The Video Gallery
by ergees
04/01/14 05:26 AM
Forum Stats
22862 Members
36 Forums
35546 Topics
432378 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#401290 - 07/18/08 10:44 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Sho and all,

Frankly looking at all of the Hakutsuru/Crane/whatever video, the only performance I see demonstrating correct power and flow between all of them is the younger Mataoyshi performing Okaku http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmASeBvCq5M. I've also seen performances of his Okinawan students doing same and a friend in the States who trained with him. His students evidence Matayoshi's own abilities.

In my mind it brings the method of transmission to question. Did the performes spend enough time (I suggest many years) with their instructor to do more than learn where to put the foot and the hand, to allow the correct transfer of energy in movement to develop, or was the time so short (clinics) or even more abstract (videos) to cause less of the original movement to be retained?

I don't know just question, especially compared to Matayoshi's students efforts.

Then again perhaps the original source didn't have much either. All systems, even Chinese ones, are not created equal after all.

Somehow I seem to remember a quote attributed to Matayoshi that the only purpose of Crane was for health, not for fighting after all. If I am correct that doesn't necessarily apply to anyone elses Crane after all.

On the whole all of the Crane is very confusing, the Chinese systems (some of them IMO) seem to be a better place to train instead of Okinawan ones....
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#401291 - 07/19/08 12:01 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
While I respect my crane friends' choice of art and see there is a lot to what they do, I don't see any particular benefit arising from crane that isn't addressed in, say, goju or uechi ryu. The shaking stuff I've said I don't agree with. Certainly arts like Yong Chun baihe don't feature this shaking.

The hakutsuru of Mayatoshi and others looks more Okinawan in style (early Kume village stuff mixed with Gokenki influence and then some silly modern additions for "aesthetic" appeal). I don't think they are related to Chinese crane except for Gokenki's influence and some more modern "cross-pollination".

I think that if you look at the Mayatoshi or the "Kume village" kata you can see some useful karate-style techniques. On the whole, a worthwhile art if done properly. But less to do with Chinese crane than goju or uechi. So the name is probably the only real link!
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

Top
#401292 - 07/19/08 06:23 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Quote:

One of the things that highlights a specifically close quarter system is the amount of techniques performed while stationary as opposed to techniques performed with a step. As the crane forms advance more techniques are added between steps. Practice of such sets increases the fluidity of hand techniques which combines with sticking training to teach the student to make smaller more movements and faster adaptations in close quarters.




Actually I disagree with you here Shonuff. What do you think the steps in karate are for? In fact, many of them are very short leg techniques which require very close distance to apply.




This is true some of the time Med, but I don't think all the steps can be passed off as such. Also that would seem to suggest that in close quarters when the fists are flying one can afford to shoot of small leg techniques in the same beat as chinese close arts throw hand techniques. It just doesn't work that way.

Shuri based Karate has much close technique, it is very good in close but it was not designed for it.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#401293 - 07/19/08 06:24 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Sho and all,

Frankly looking at all of the Hakutsuru/Crane/whatever video, the only performance I see demonstrating correct power and flow between all of them is the younger Mataoyshi performing Okaku http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmASeBvCq5M.




Correct by what standard?

Also I seem to remember Unyu pontificating about Hakutsuru and pointing out that it was only ever a supplementary study and that Gojushiho was the highest kata in the system and contained everything relevant to MS Shorin ryu.


Edited by Shonuff (07/19/08 06:26 PM)
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

Top
#401294 - 07/19/08 08:53 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Sho,

I should have elaborated further, my standard is my own experience at looking at the arts from many instructors I've trained with.

I like the connection of body movement Matayoshi represents in his crane, I like how his movement style was transmitted to the video I've seen of his students in Okinawa, and I also found it present in my friends practice in Massachusetts.

The video record is far from a perfect tool, just representing an instant in time, and most of them really weren't filmed for us to review.

I don't draw my distinction by comparing it to Chinese Crane systems.

My friend mainly is a Goju stylist who mostly trained with Matayoshi Sensei in Kobudo, but he did study his Crane technique too.

Tactially I don't conisider any practice lesser or greater than any other. Some are technically more demanding, such as a Gojushiho kata, but in execution any one technique correctly done should be enough, the kata training something more than just techniques IMO.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#401295 - 07/23/08 07:03 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
debushi Offline
Banned

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 11
Being a Seito guy who trained with Lindsey I can say that first off the video of Lindsey doing Hakkucho is old and outmoded. It's from the 1980's I think, maybe early 90's. His crane forms have been refined since then with the help of real White Crane Chuan Fa shifu. He is a much more relaxed and effective practitioner now, even by his own admission.

Victor is under the impression that what he knew of Lindsey's group and Lindsey himself from over a decade ago still holds true today. He has said he can't or won't learn anything from him. His loss. What Ron does is a lot like what Suenaka, Kise and Nishihira did/do. If you want a glimpse of real old style karate, he is one of the few guys in the whole world who has the knowledge AND the skill to demonstrate "koryu" karate.

The Lindsey crane forms are supplementary and a system all their own. The kata of the Seito system are inherently influenced by crane among other sources. The highest kata of the Seito lineage is the Hakutsusru, but Kusanku is the most advanced form. If Gojushiho was mentioned as Seito's highest form then that was wrong. I don't think that was ever said though. Gojushiho is a higher level form, Yondan, but it is not the highest Shorin kata. Everyone knows that title belongs to Kusanku and some Seito guys will say Hakutsuru.

What Chuck Chandler is doing looks stiff and un-Crane like. His stances are locked out and too long and wide, especially for a short guy. His shoulders are too far back, his movements are rigid and he lacks koshi as well as any semblance of rising, floating, sinking, spitting or swallowing. He is shoulder locked and spastic looking. He's an alright karate-ka, but he does his supposed crane like a modern karate guy. He was booted from Lindsey's group and he has done many questionable things since then. He is a con-man at heart according to many.

Shoshinkan has it right. The Matsumura Kata are all you need. When I trained with Lindsey, two of us would train Seito and dozens would come from all over to supplement their karate which consisted of many systems/dojo in order to "enhance" their understanding of karate. The crane forms he taught the others were very effective when applied, but used the same principles seen in Matsumura Orthodox Sui-di. Lindsey made a subsystem based on his experience in other art forms, and the forms seen now- Nijuken, Hakutsuru Mei, Nipaipo, etc.- are his versions of forms either in existence or formulated with other Shifu help.

He encouraged my training partner and I to stick to the Seito techniques and form, so we never even gave Hakutsuru a second thought. For several years we trained only Seito not Matsumura Seito Hakutsuru Karate Jutsu. He encouraged us to train the original. There is one true Seito Hakutsuru form. The forms trained in that crane group are separate from that, but utilize Seito principles as well as White Crane Chuan Fa.

Again, he told two of us that the Orthodox way was all you ever needed. I have seen him actually apply techniquues from his Crane kata in real time with resistance, so I know it is real and effective. He did the same thing with his Orthodox kata analysis and application. He has been training everyday for 40 years now, so he can use his karate unlike any I've ever seen, but that's just my opinion. The guy can fight for sure, plus he's big, smart, fast and strong as an ox.

The Matayoshi love is all good, but I guarantee you guys Lindsey is even rarer than that gem. He's beyond most sensei at this point. Anyone who has trained with him in the last decade will tell you this regardless of what system they train or trained in.

Thanks for the Seito vids, but you really have very little there. Good try though...

Top
#401296 - 07/23/08 08:20 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: debushi]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
As a minor hobby I keep track of what's being posted in a very wide range of arts. I don't post them, just note them for my own thoughts and share them for discussion.

I have enough to keep me busy in my own studies for lifetimes which is why I am not seeking anything from anybody. As I haven't trained with the people you mention, nor have you trained with the people who've shared with me.

That leaves little to discuss meaningfully.

I find enough crane in my tai chi work and am willing to use it as readily as the rest of my studies.

May we each find our peace.

And what shows up next, hard to say it seems if it's been filmed there's a race to put it out there.

So from that perspective, we can only review what is shared, and tomorrow it's guaranteed there will be more.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#401297 - 07/23/08 11:11 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Victor Smith]
debushi Offline
Banned

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 11
Vic:
I don't presume to know how you've trained, but I have seen every possible variation of karate, Isshin or otherwise, from here to Asia. I have also observed numerous kata and traning vids on this site/elsewhere and I can say for some certainty that it looks as if everyone has the same basic template for karate training. This includes those versed in various forms of Matsumura Seito. The nuances are missing like in that Chandler video. Improper stepping, fist formations, stances, constipated execution, straight rear legs in a small forward stance, knees locked in narrow stances, elbows splayed out away from the body, use of modern sport figting terms and techniques for kata analysis, the list goes on-and-on.

The lack of deep and authentic Okinawan style training is apparent. It is kind of disheartening to see that those who have really trained with old style sensei will probably never transmit this true karate knowledge on to many people. The truth is that things worth real value are rare as are those who recognize this and transmit it accordingly. I mean the people I know who understand Okinawan Karate will never open a school or teach outside of their personal circle. Not everyone should learn the rawer or truer old forms of karate.

What I'm getting at is it's rare to find a virtuoso piano tecaher who can do and teach. You know, walk the talk. Trying to glean lessons from videos and threads is just ridiculous. You'll get diddly from it. You can watch a video of Hohan Soken performing kata at 80 years old and claim that is how he always did his kata, but the context and timeframe are out of wack. Beyond bunkai for a movement, you are looking at personalized interpretation of a kata he did differently at a younger age.

So again, this fascination with trying to discern anything from two-dimensional images, moving or static, is beyond naive. You are just kidding yourself if you think video or popularity has anything to do with real world validity, especially when it comes to Okinawan Karate. I'm not saying that if you post vids of yourself you might be weak, but what I am saying is that the majority of the karate vids available give you very little in the way of understanding old style karate.

What people also need to understand is that any type of transmission without actual training, via books, mags or whatever media is superficial at best and good for nothing except to give you a small inkling of a system. It is the Okinawan and Chinese way to only transmit the guts and reality of it all to loyal and diligent students. Most dojo will let one observe, but the sensei usually have a problem with non-students sitting in on classes uninvited. This goes back to a time when only a select few were allowed to train. Most do a karate influenced by mass instruction at the grade school level (Itosu-Ha, Mabuni-Ha and Miyagi-ha). Most of that, not all, is diluted karate training compared to the old ways. High ranking Isshin Ryu practitioners themselves have admitted that Tatsuo O'Sensei failed to transmit a lot of the old ways to the myriad students he trained.

Without real training in a system how the heck would you know what you were looking at anyway?

By the way, Tai Chi Chuan especially of the Manqing line is awesome fighting stuff. Too bad not many realize this. It is beyond most White Crane IMHO. So you don't need to look elsewhere.

Again, good try but you can gather very little from those videos.

Top
#401298 - 08/07/08 12:34 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: debushi]
RedRider Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 7
Just so you know, Lindsey Sensei and Chuck Chandler reconciled last year and Mr. Lindsey considers him a friend now. Please have the facts straight prior to posting anything that could hurt that friendship.

Mr. Lindsey asks that his name not be mentioned when one is speaking derogatorily about anyone, anyone's martial art, or fighting ability.

Also Brian, Sensei asks that you call him ASAP, he would like to speak with you. He doesn't have your number or email and says that he hasn't seen you in about 3 years.

Ronnie

Top
#401299 - 08/07/08 08:20 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: RedRider]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Brian aka Unsu aka Unshu aka Debushi... How many multiple online personalities does one poster need?

Top
Page 4 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Cord, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga