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#401280 - 07/17/08 12:38 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: duanew]
chusauli Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 6
For the Crane people: Where is the Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit? Why so stiff and tense?

The Chinese sets are smooth and fluid, what happened?
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#401281 - 07/17/08 01:35 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think the difference between Chinese sets and Okinawan kata is mainly grounded in 2 areas-

1. Okinawan kata tend not to be smooth and fluid (only a few exceptions).
2. Okinawan kata tend to be simple in relation to many chinese sets (I don't say that negativly either).

Theres a bit of a joke going around about karateka doing Crane sets badly (I do not refer to anyone specific here),

I think it has merit as the karateka, generally has a very different martial training.

This is why I don't learn Crane sets but just toy with Crane concepts and training mewthods to support my shorin ryu.
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#401282 - 07/17/08 02:11 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: shoshinkan]
chusauli Offline
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Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 6
Thank you!

I think White Crane had a great influence on Southern Fist in general, including Ngo Cho, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, and Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Kingai Ryu and of course people who studied at the Kenkyukai with GoKenki.
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#401283 - 07/17/08 02:17 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
chusauli Offline
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Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 6
I do think the Okinawans further "Okinawa-ized" the sets, then the Japanese "Nippon-ized" them.

Basically, Sanzhan, Babulian and Nipai are a major part of Ming He Quan. Maybe just concentrate on those sets and link them as one long set...Forget about the Hakucho, Hakutsura, etc.


Edited by chusauli (07/17/08 02:19 PM)
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#401284 - 07/17/08 05:30 PM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
my intention is to focus simply on the Seito Matsumura Hakutsuru, when im given the kata.

Im to busy with our kata Pinan, Naihanchi, Passai, Chinto, Useishi and Kusanku to worry about other crane forms etc etc.

my feeling is that the 'crane' in shorin ryu is likely a different system from the crane in say Goju or Uechi ryu anyhow, or the Long Fist elemet is more prevalent - but it is difficult to be accurate with so much change to the systems, and my limited resources and experience.

Good to meet you Robert and welcome to the forum.
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#401285 - 07/18/08 07:08 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: chusauli]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
That is a fascinating question. As this/these ideas are so central (or known) to CMA/IMA...what happened? Incomplete transmission perhaps (for whatever reasons)?

Quote:

For the Crane people: Where is the Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit? Why so stiff and tense?

The Chinese sets are smooth and fluid, what happened?



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#401286 - 07/18/08 07:37 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

For the Crane people: Where is the Float, Sink, Swallow, Spit? Why so stiff and tense?




I'm not entirely impressed with this paradigm anyway - I wonder whether it really does provide a useful forumla...

Quote:

The Chinese sets are smooth and fluid, what happened?




Eh? Yong chun is as "fluid" as tensho or uechi ryu. It is different - not more fluid. Ditto ngo cho kun. The type of movement often has less "focus", but crane being more "fluid" is imho incorrect.
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#401287 - 07/18/08 09:25 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Personally I have found that Crane stylists learn greater fluidity in application as opposed to their particular performances of forms. This is IMO due to crane being designed for use in a different range to Karate.

One of the things that highlights a specifically close quarter system is the amount of techniques performed while stationary as opposed to techniques performed with a step. As the crane forms advance more techniques are added between steps. Practice of such sets increases the fluidity of hand techniques which combines with sticking training to teach the student to make smaller more movements and faster adaptations in close quarters.

The whole float sink spit swallow thing is a useful way to look at movements to find other dimensions to them and help refine how you use your body to generate them, however as a defining point of a system it is far too generic.

The biggest disparity I find between crane and Karate is in the use of the waist. Karate simply doesn't make use of the waist like crane does and this small detail alters the whole concept.
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#401288 - 07/18/08 09:44 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
On the other hand, I'm not a fan of the "shaking" used in many crane styles (where the hips and waist shake a lot). I know the theory, but it doesn't appeal, particularly with my karate and internal arts which use hips, but don't keep shaking after the compeletion of the technique.

As I said, crane movements can look distinctly Chinese, but I don't think they are any more "fluid" than, say, goju or uechi. Just different. The "stiffness" thing is inaccurate when comparing southern Chinese forms like crane.

On the other hand, if you were to compare karate of any kind with either the internal arts of taiji or bagua, perhaps longfist Shaolin styles or any competition wushu this is another ballgame.
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#401289 - 07/18/08 11:45 AM Re: For the Matsumura Seito crowd [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

One of the things that highlights a specifically close quarter system is the amount of techniques performed while stationary as opposed to techniques performed with a step. As the crane forms advance more techniques are added between steps. Practice of such sets increases the fluidity of hand techniques which combines with sticking training to teach the student to make smaller more movements and faster adaptations in close quarters.




Actually I disagree with you here Shonuff. What do you think the steps in karate are for? In fact, many of them are very short leg techniques which require very close distance to apply.
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