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#400291 - 06/25/08 07:13 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia

#400292 - 06/25/08 07:57 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
What are non kata techniques? The first I can think of would be roundhouse kicks, but I thought you were using them in your randori video.
Dulaney Dojo

#400293 - 06/25/08 11:07 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You'll recall Marcel that I said:


We've dropped all "non-kata" ippon/sandan/gohon etc. kumite.

By this I mean that we don't have as a grading requirement some form of ippon, sandan or gohon kumite other than kata bunkai or kata related bunkai. Many schools (eg. Kanazawa's SKI) have elaborate lists of such kumite in their grading syllabus. We don't as a matter of preference. Students must show a kata and its bunkai - and later on embu and tuide from the kata.

Now what I've said isn't entirely correct since our first grading requires very basic ippon kumite (eg. stepping back 45 degrees in zenkutsu dachi, age uke, choku zuki) - as a stepping stone to learning kata bunkai for the first kata at the second grading. This "non-kata ippon" is just for learning basic coordination and taisabaki. Later this knowledge of moving is assumed (and subsumed) by tenshin (evasion) derived from/related to kata bunkai.

We also have some non-kata related self-defence requirements (basic releases from chokes etc.) in the first 2 gradings - just to give some immediately practical skills in addition to "long-term" drills. Otherwise any "2 person" grading requirement relates to a kata.

Despite this, some "non-grading" drills require kihon type exercise, eg. ude tanren. We might also do 3 or 5 step training in class for fitness or conditioning (very rarely, but good for beginners). But this is different from having them as grading requirements. One might to skipping in a lesson, but it isn't a part of the syllabus...

Other than that our karate is kata-based.

What about techniques like mawashi geri? We call these "stray techniques". We have packaged some of these stray techniques (those we don't want to "relinquish") into our embu, so that all our techniques are now contained, if not in the kata themselves, in embu or our tuide lock-flows.

We have packaged mawashi geri into our naifunchin embu. We find that it fitted well because the ashibo kake uke in naifunchin is a good defence against mawashi geri.

There are a few other stray techniques that have been packaged into other embu: horizontal uraken is in the gekisai embu (it is well defended by the "secondary arm" in the hiki uke deflection) etc.

I hope this clarifies things.

#400294 - 07/25/08 08:31 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: dandjurdjevic]
GaryWado Offline

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 11
Hi Guys,

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but I am fairly new to this board, and slowly going through some of the previous threads.

If I am not mistaken, I think that the pair work that Ken mentions here are Wado-Ryu pairs, which may explain why some members struggle to understand the terminology that has been used.

Kihon Gumite is a set of 10 paired katas codified by Otsuka sensei (founder of Wado Ryu). They are heavily influenced by Koryu Japanese Jujutsu (namely - Shindo Yoshin Ryu) and unique to Wado.

Ohyo Kumite (in this context)is again a Wado invention, but these were created a bit more recently by Mr Suzuki (most senior student of Otsuka sensei), in order to facilitate the transition of fighting applications from Kata to Kumite.

The other Wado Yakusoku Kumite that ken mentions (1 steps, 2 steps etc.)are basically the same format as found within other style.

Wado-ryu karate does not tend to use Kata Bunkai in the same way that Okinawan based karate styles do. It is not fundamental to our system.

Typically, Wado practitioners use the expression "Keisetsu" to describe the application of the principles contained within the techniques with a partner, pretty much in the same way they are performed in the kata (IE without deviation). Most wado schools will not place too much importance on the further "interpretation" and development of these techniques.

The key to facilitating this step in Wado is the ongoing practice of the 9 main katas, along with the staged introduction of the various Yakusoku Kumite, the most imporatnt of which are Kihon Gumite.

This approach to Bunkai seems very odd to most Okinawan based stylist, and I think this in part is to do with Wado's heritage.

#400295 - 07/25/08 09:07 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: GaryWado]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 921
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Welcome to the Forum Gary

And thanks for explaining things for me, A bit better than I did.

You've also answered my question regards the reasoning towards them

With My Karate I don't want to to follow the 'monkey says monkey does' ethos. I want to understand everything to do with my Karate

I am always asking questions - about kata, kihons etc. In tern my students are always asking me questions about Kihons and Kata

I enjoy the questions from my students!!!

A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.


#400296 - 07/25/08 10:40 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
GaryWado Offline

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 11
Thanks for the welcome,

I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, and for sure, one thing that I have found in 20+ years of wado training is the more I learn, the more I realise I have yet to understand.

BTW re-reading my post I found that I have made a typo - should be "Kaisetsu" not "Keisetsu".



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