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#400281 - 06/24/08 08:56 AM Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All,

Why do we have these Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-steps, 3-Steps in our grading syllabuses in Wado Ryu, Shotokan, ShitoRyu, Goju Ryu, and Kyokushin Etc?

Almost all the techniques practiced in the 2-mans are found in the kata. Why do we have to practice these, when all we need is the Bunkai of each kata?

I ask this as in Ashihara and Enshin there is a Bunkai for each kata, there are no 2-mans just kata Bunkai.

So why therefore isn't traditional karate the same? Why don't we either practice kata Bunkai for each grading etc or just formulate the 2-Mans into their own kata(s)?

I leave it to the forum to advise!




Osu!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#400282 - 06/24/08 09:12 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
generally speaking it would seem each Ryu head created (or seniors after etc etc) the various fixed kumite sets to deliver and emphasise certain techniques, principles and strategys, in line with the system but personal to their own ideas.

In most cases the core methods can be found in the kata, but not always.

I agree much can be done simply from working kata Bunkai, but there does seem to be merit in having a set of simple responses or skill building fixed kumite's in a system (however currently i only work semi fixed drills).
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#400283 - 06/24/08 10:33 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ken:

For those of us who do not speak Japanese.... what is gumite, whether Oyho or Kihon?


Jeff

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#400284 - 06/24/08 11:33 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Ronin1966]
Dobbersky Offline
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
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Ronin-san

Its basically 2-man 1-step/3-step techniques or a single combination against single or multiple techniques

Osu
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#400285 - 06/24/08 11:34 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Apologies for cross-posting...just wanted to throw it into the mix:

http://seinenkai.com/articles/tankosich/tankosich3.html



Quote:

Translation of Mabuni's "Practice Karate Correctly"

In karate, the most important thing is kata. Into the kata of karate are woven every manner of attack and defense technique. Therefore, kata must be practiced properly, with a good understanding of their bunkai meaning. There may be those who neglect the practice of kata, thinking that it is sufficient to just practice [pre-arranged] kumite (13) that has been created based on their understanding of the kata, but that will never lead to true advancement. The reason why is that the ways of thrusting and blocking - that is to say, the techniques of attack and defense - have innumerable variations. To create kumite containing all of the techniques in each and every one of their variations is impossible. If one sufficiently and regularly practices kata correctly, it will serve as a foundation for performing - when a crucial time comes - any of the innumerable variations.

However, even if you practice the kata of karate, if that is all that you do, if your [other] training is lacking, then you will not develop sufficient ability. If you do not [also] utilize various training methods to strengthen and quicken the functioning of your hands and feet, as well as to sufficiently study things like body-shifting and engagement distancing, you will be inadequately prepared when the need arises to call on your skills.

If practiced properly, two or three kata will suffice as "your" kata; all of the others can just be studied as sources of additional knowledge. Breadth, no matter how great, means little without depth. In other words, no matter how many kata you know, they will be useless to you if you don't practice them enough. If you sufficiently study two or three kata as your own and strive to perform them correctly, when the need arises, that training will spontaneously take over and will be shown to be surprisingly effective. If your kata training is incorrect, you will develop bad habits which, no matter how much kumite and makiwara practice you do, will lead to unexpected failure when the time comes to utilize your skills. You should be heedful of this point.

Correctly practicing kata - having sufficiently comprehended their meaning - is the most important thing for a karate trainee. However, the karate-ka must by no means neglect kumite and makiwara practice, either. Accordingly, if one seriously trains - and studies - with the intent of approximately fifty percent kata and fifty percent other things, one will get satisfactory results.

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#400286 - 06/24/08 02:16 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
excellent find Harlan , me likes.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#400287 - 06/24/08 04:22 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: harlan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Nice find! Definitely a keeper...

"Breadth, no matter how great, means little without depth"

Truer words!

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#400288 - 06/25/08 01:58 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-S [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
In many kung fu and some karate systems you have 2 man kata, the kihon kumite of Wado Ryu are just that and you need to practice the bunkai' of those to understand them properly.
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#400289 - 06/25/08 03:07 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

All,

Why do we have these Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-steps, 3-Steps in our grading syllabuses in Wado Ryu, Shotokan, ShitoRyu, Goju Ryu, and Kyokushin Etc?

Almost all the techniques practiced in the 2-mans are found in the kata. Why do we have to practice these, when all we need is the Bunkai of each kata?

I ask this as in Ashihara and Enshin there is a Bunkai for each kata, there are no 2-mans just kata Bunkai.

So why therefore isn't traditional karate the same? Why don't we either practice kata Bunkai for each grading etc or just formulate the 2-Mans into their own kata(s)?

I leave it to the forum to advise!




Osu!




Hi Dobbersky

We've dropped all "non-kata" ippon/sandan/gohon etc. kumite. We have the kata and its bunkai. However we do 2 person forms for each kata as well. Why? I've explained our rationale in this article.

In summary, our embu serves as a "bridge" from kata bunkai to free sparring. It does so by putting kata techniques into a "dynamic" (continuously flowing) context rather than the "stop start" environment of single bunkai practice (which is highly unrealistic in many respects and is only suitable as a starting point in terms of learning to apply it in free fighting imho).

Having said that, note 2 things:

(1) I think it is important to be substantially acquainted with the kata and bunkai before any attempt is made at practice such as our embu - the quote from Mabuni above is highly relevant to our training. We teach an embu of a kata 2 or 3 levels after the kata is first taught.

(2) I don't think sandan/gohon kumite achieves the concept our embu address because they are usually just very basic forward and backward stepping with no application of evasion - ie. the context is as unrealistic and as far from free-sparring as simple kihon kumite.

Imho kihon and stepping kumite is good for beginners only to the extent it teaches martial skills. Having said that, it is still useful for certain conditioning drills.

I also don't like the approach some syllabus' have of having 1000s of techniques unrelated to the kata - I like a kata-based system to be just that: kata-based. Our embu "package" oyo and tenshin (evasion) / taisabaki (body movement) commonly/traditionally associated with, or applied in, our kata (even if they are not direct bunkai).


Edited by dandjurdjevic (06/25/08 03:25 AM)

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#400290 - 06/25/08 12:13 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
What are "non-kata" ippon/sandan/gohon etc. kumite? Are you talking about non kata techiniques, principles, or both?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#400291 - 06/25/08 07:13 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Both.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#400292 - 06/25/08 07:57 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
What are non kata techniques? The first I can think of would be roundhouse kicks, but I thought you were using them in your randori video.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#400293 - 06/25/08 11:07 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You'll recall Marcel that I said:

Quote:

We've dropped all "non-kata" ippon/sandan/gohon etc. kumite.




By this I mean that we don't have as a grading requirement some form of ippon, sandan or gohon kumite other than kata bunkai or kata related bunkai. Many schools (eg. Kanazawa's SKI) have elaborate lists of such kumite in their grading syllabus. We don't as a matter of preference. Students must show a kata and its bunkai - and later on embu and tuide from the kata.

Now what I've said isn't entirely correct since our first grading requires very basic ippon kumite (eg. stepping back 45 degrees in zenkutsu dachi, age uke, choku zuki) - as a stepping stone to learning kata bunkai for the first kata at the second grading. This "non-kata ippon" is just for learning basic coordination and taisabaki. Later this knowledge of moving is assumed (and subsumed) by tenshin (evasion) derived from/related to kata bunkai.

We also have some non-kata related self-defence requirements (basic releases from chokes etc.) in the first 2 gradings - just to give some immediately practical skills in addition to "long-term" drills. Otherwise any "2 person" grading requirement relates to a kata.

Despite this, some "non-grading" drills require kihon type exercise, eg. ude tanren. We might also do 3 or 5 step training in class for fitness or conditioning (very rarely, but good for beginners). But this is different from having them as grading requirements. One might to skipping in a lesson, but it isn't a part of the syllabus...

Other than that our karate is kata-based.

What about techniques like mawashi geri? We call these "stray techniques". We have packaged some of these stray techniques (those we don't want to "relinquish") into our embu, so that all our techniques are now contained, if not in the kata themselves, in embu or our tuide lock-flows.

We have packaged mawashi geri into our naifunchin embu. We find that it fitted well because the ashibo kake uke in naifunchin is a good defence against mawashi geri.

There are a few other stray techniques that have been packaged into other embu: horizontal uraken is in the gekisai embu (it is well defended by the "secondary arm" in the hiki uke deflection) etc.


I hope this clarifies things.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#400294 - 07/25/08 08:31 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: dandjurdjevic]
GaryWado Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 11
Hi Guys,

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but I am fairly new to this board, and slowly going through some of the previous threads.

If I am not mistaken, I think that the pair work that Ken mentions here are Wado-Ryu pairs, which may explain why some members struggle to understand the terminology that has been used.

Kihon Gumite is a set of 10 paired katas codified by Otsuka sensei (founder of Wado Ryu). They are heavily influenced by Koryu Japanese Jujutsu (namely - Shindo Yoshin Ryu) and unique to Wado.

Ohyo Kumite (in this context)is again a Wado invention, but these were created a bit more recently by Mr Suzuki (most senior student of Otsuka sensei), in order to facilitate the transition of fighting applications from Kata to Kumite.

The other Wado Yakusoku Kumite that ken mentions (1 steps, 2 steps etc.)are basically the same format as found within other style.

Wado-ryu karate does not tend to use Kata Bunkai in the same way that Okinawan based karate styles do. It is not fundamental to our system.

Typically, Wado practitioners use the expression "Keisetsu" to describe the application of the principles contained within the techniques with a partner, pretty much in the same way they are performed in the kata (IE without deviation). Most wado schools will not place too much importance on the further "interpretation" and development of these techniques.

The key to facilitating this step in Wado is the ongoing practice of the 9 main katas, along with the staged introduction of the various Yakusoku Kumite, the most imporatnt of which are Kihon Gumite.

This approach to Bunkai seems very odd to most Okinawan based stylist, and I think this in part is to do with Wado's heritage.

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#400295 - 07/25/08 09:07 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: GaryWado]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Welcome to the Forum Gary

And thanks for explaining things for me, A bit better than I did.

You've also answered my question regards the reasoning towards them

With My Karate I don't want to to follow the 'monkey says monkey does' ethos. I want to understand everything to do with my Karate

I am always asking questions - about kata, kihons etc. In tern my students are always asking me questions about Kihons and Kata

I enjoy the questions from my students!!!

Osu!!!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#400296 - 07/25/08 10:40 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
GaryWado Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 11
Thanks for the welcome,

I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, and for sure, one thing that I have found in 20+ years of wado training is the more I learn, the more I realise I have yet to understand.

BTW re-reading my post I found that I have made a typo - should be "Kaisetsu" not "Keisetsu".

Apologies

Gary

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