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#400281 - 06/24/08 08:56 AM Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
All,

Why do we have these Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-steps, 3-Steps in our grading syllabuses in Wado Ryu, Shotokan, ShitoRyu, Goju Ryu, and Kyokushin Etc?

Almost all the techniques practiced in the 2-mans are found in the kata. Why do we have to practice these, when all we need is the Bunkai of each kata?

I ask this as in Ashihara and Enshin there is a Bunkai for each kata, there are no 2-mans just kata Bunkai.

So why therefore isn't traditional karate the same? Why don't we either practice kata Bunkai for each grading etc or just formulate the 2-Mans into their own kata(s)?

I leave it to the forum to advise!




Osu!
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#400282 - 06/24/08 09:12 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
generally speaking it would seem each Ryu head created (or seniors after etc etc) the various fixed kumite sets to deliver and emphasise certain techniques, principles and strategys, in line with the system but personal to their own ideas.

In most cases the core methods can be found in the kata, but not always.

I agree much can be done simply from working kata Bunkai, but there does seem to be merit in having a set of simple responses or skill building fixed kumite's in a system (however currently i only work semi fixed drills).
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#400283 - 06/24/08 10:33 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ken:

For those of us who do not speak Japanese.... what is gumite, whether Oyho or Kihon?


Jeff

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#400284 - 06/24/08 11:33 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Ronin1966]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Ronin-san

Its basically 2-man 1-step/3-step techniques or a single combination against single or multiple techniques

Osu
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#400285 - 06/24/08 11:34 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Apologies for cross-posting...just wanted to throw it into the mix:

http://seinenkai.com/articles/tankosich/tankosich3.html



Quote:

Translation of Mabuni's "Practice Karate Correctly"

In karate, the most important thing is kata. Into the kata of karate are woven every manner of attack and defense technique. Therefore, kata must be practiced properly, with a good understanding of their bunkai meaning. There may be those who neglect the practice of kata, thinking that it is sufficient to just practice [pre-arranged] kumite (13) that has been created based on their understanding of the kata, but that will never lead to true advancement. The reason why is that the ways of thrusting and blocking - that is to say, the techniques of attack and defense - have innumerable variations. To create kumite containing all of the techniques in each and every one of their variations is impossible. If one sufficiently and regularly practices kata correctly, it will serve as a foundation for performing - when a crucial time comes - any of the innumerable variations.

However, even if you practice the kata of karate, if that is all that you do, if your [other] training is lacking, then you will not develop sufficient ability. If you do not [also] utilize various training methods to strengthen and quicken the functioning of your hands and feet, as well as to sufficiently study things like body-shifting and engagement distancing, you will be inadequately prepared when the need arises to call on your skills.

If practiced properly, two or three kata will suffice as "your" kata; all of the others can just be studied as sources of additional knowledge. Breadth, no matter how great, means little without depth. In other words, no matter how many kata you know, they will be useless to you if you don't practice them enough. If you sufficiently study two or three kata as your own and strive to perform them correctly, when the need arises, that training will spontaneously take over and will be shown to be surprisingly effective. If your kata training is incorrect, you will develop bad habits which, no matter how much kumite and makiwara practice you do, will lead to unexpected failure when the time comes to utilize your skills. You should be heedful of this point.

Correctly practicing kata - having sufficiently comprehended their meaning - is the most important thing for a karate trainee. However, the karate-ka must by no means neglect kumite and makiwara practice, either. Accordingly, if one seriously trains - and studies - with the intent of approximately fifty percent kata and fifty percent other things, one will get satisfactory results.

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#400286 - 06/24/08 02:16 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: harlan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
excellent find Harlan , me likes.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#400287 - 06/24/08 04:22 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: harlan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Nice find! Definitely a keeper...

"Breadth, no matter how great, means little without depth"

Truer words!

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#400288 - 06/25/08 01:58 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-S [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Bossman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
In many kung fu and some karate systems you have 2 man kata, the kihon kumite of Wado Ryu are just that and you need to practice the bunkai' of those to understand them properly.
_________________________
supporting standards in the martial arts www.shikon.com www.masa.org.uk

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#400289 - 06/25/08 03:07 AM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: Dobbersky]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

All,

Why do we have these Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-steps, 3-Steps in our grading syllabuses in Wado Ryu, Shotokan, ShitoRyu, Goju Ryu, and Kyokushin Etc?

Almost all the techniques practiced in the 2-mans are found in the kata. Why do we have to practice these, when all we need is the Bunkai of each kata?

I ask this as in Ashihara and Enshin there is a Bunkai for each kata, there are no 2-mans just kata Bunkai.

So why therefore isn't traditional karate the same? Why don't we either practice kata Bunkai for each grading etc or just formulate the 2-Mans into their own kata(s)?

I leave it to the forum to advise!




Osu!




Hi Dobbersky

We've dropped all "non-kata" ippon/sandan/gohon etc. kumite. We have the kata and its bunkai. However we do 2 person forms for each kata as well. Why? I've explained our rationale in this article.

In summary, our embu serves as a "bridge" from kata bunkai to free sparring. It does so by putting kata techniques into a "dynamic" (continuously flowing) context rather than the "stop start" environment of single bunkai practice (which is highly unrealistic in many respects and is only suitable as a starting point in terms of learning to apply it in free fighting imho).

Having said that, note 2 things:

(1) I think it is important to be substantially acquainted with the kata and bunkai before any attempt is made at practice such as our embu - the quote from Mabuni above is highly relevant to our training. We teach an embu of a kata 2 or 3 levels after the kata is first taught.

(2) I don't think sandan/gohon kumite achieves the concept our embu address because they are usually just very basic forward and backward stepping with no application of evasion - ie. the context is as unrealistic and as far from free-sparring as simple kihon kumite.

Imho kihon and stepping kumite is good for beginners only to the extent it teaches martial skills. Having said that, it is still useful for certain conditioning drills.

I also don't like the approach some syllabus' have of having 1000s of techniques unrelated to the kata - I like a kata-based system to be just that: kata-based. Our embu "package" oyo and tenshin (evasion) / taisabaki (body movement) commonly/traditionally associated with, or applied in, our kata (even if they are not direct bunkai).


Edited by dandjurdjevic (06/25/08 03:25 AM)

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#400290 - 06/25/08 12:13 PM Re: Kihon Gumite, Oyho Gumite, 2-Mans, 1-step, 3-Step [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
What are "non-kata" ippon/sandan/gohon etc. kumite? Are you talking about non kata techiniques, principles, or both?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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