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#399961 - 06/19/08 12:26 AM I love karate, but.....
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'm sick of all the politics.

I'm frustrated by the dumbing down of the art.

I'm tired of the bickering about kata application.

The 'True Okinawan Elitist' attitudes really suck.

The bitchin about which styles are better is just too stupid.

The 'that won't work' attitude from outsiders is just 289ythyut8479sjo!!!!!!!!!!

The idiots that just 'research' instead of doing real training.

The blown up ranks and ridiculous soke or grandmaster titles should just be banned!!

Tippy tappy sparring and XMA IS NOT KARATE!!

and you???
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#399962 - 06/19/08 01:13 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: BrianS]
Seiken Offline

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Why not...

I love karate, but... the people who think karate is/should be only what they think or want it to be need to grow up!

All in all, sounds to me like your sick of looking on the internet or talking on this forum and coming across things like this, honestly, someone who isnt involved with people you speak of would never reach this point and have the animosity you have. Unless they put themselves in these situations, or spent too much time on the internet getting involved for no reason. Just look at your involvement with the Jion thread, has no point, your practically creating your own issues!

How are you frustrated by the dumbing down of the art? Is yours dumbed down? Is what you know dumbed down? This effects you how?

Politics? I dont run or get involved with any org. what so ever, something I dont ever have to deal with. Do you? Or just on this forum?

The bickering? See above. This forum is your problem.

Okinawan elitist? Sounds to me like your creating something from nothing, again with someone on this forum.

Styles? See above.

That wont work? You discuss your karate with too many people outside of karate it seems! I suggest stop talking on these forums then.

Idiots? The worlds full of them, not just karate. Youve never researched? Im sure you even use the apparently TABOO! all the time, just think of anytime you used it to look something up that had nothing to do with karate, cooking, auto, maps, clothes, tickets, music, statistics, etc.. For heavens sake, you act like you know everything about everyone you talk to! You do know not everything you read is a lie! And research can and many times does involve hands on experience. Training should only take up so much time, with 4971 posts though, you know there is time for other things as well, here you are creating more issues for no reason..

Ranks? Really? This bothers you? Interesting... are you a soke? train under a soke? Ive never been involved with anyone that used this title that wasnt a great person, regardless of skill. So I see no wrong reason in using this as a label. You were a student at one time? Had a teacher? That teacher had a college professor... that college professor had teachers etc.. Youve let the martial arts mystique clowd your human judgement. Its just another term.

XMA? This just enforces my (surely wrong) judgement on you. No matter what you say XMA is karate. Or do the people who created this style have to prove to you why its karate? I remember seeing a documentary and the founders of this XMA were training under Okinawan Karate instructors. Must be a consipracy. And tippy tappy sparring in and of itself is not karate, of course it isnt.. its an isolation exercise like many things. But karateka can and do use it all the time. Makiwara isnt karate, makiwara is a board with straw and rope, but karateka can and do use them!

Edited by Seiken (06/19/08 01:14 AM)

#399963 - 06/19/08 01:51 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: Seiken]
dandjurdjevic Offline

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I can see why Brian is frustrated. Saying it is caused by this forum is misplaced - because he is, after all, addressing people on this forum.

From my limited experience Brian is speaking about dealings on this forum with people who are elitist about their "pure" form of karate. I've encountered this, and not in forums but in real life. I had one fellow with all of 2 years experience come to my dojo to train. He trained with an IOGKF splinter group. He said to me after the lesson: "Yes, what you do is okay - but why not do the real thing?" I looked at him, his knuckles all gnarled and split from overdoing makiwara without proper conditioning, thought about his appalling basic technique, lack of kime, control or any finesse, and his inability to apply any technique in sparring and thought: "if this is the real thing, I'll give it a miss". The irony is that our dojo is a "splinter" from IOGKF - as far removed as his is in terms of lineage (even though we did split a decade earlier than his group).

At an internal arts seminar in 1989 I experienced the same elitism from a taiji student who had been training for all of 6 months but assured me that this was worth much more than my (then) 8 years of training. After all, I was a meat-eating brute with no chi power.

So I share Brian's frustration as to elitism. It is rampant.

I also share his frustration at all the posturing and high grades. At one seminar a fellow who couldn't punch his way through a wet paper bag introduced himself to me as "Shihan so and so". He had the audacity to tell me: "Your technique isn't all that bad, but you need more 'hara'." His technique was appalling. His version of 'hara' was an abundant shaking caused by reabsorption of power. I had to swallow bile - I could have given the Shihan a hiding even as a young brown belt.

The "that won't work" from keyboard ninjas or non TMA is also frustrating.

Having said all this, I agree with you that there is little point in complaining. One just has to deal with it, especially if one is going to discuss things on a forum such as this.

#399964 - 06/19/08 02:48 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Yeah well, people are stupid, what a surprise huh?

Anyway, I understand the frustration but that's just the MA world, and all of those aspects are 100 times worse on forums for whatever reason. The good thing is you have people to train with who (I assume) don't fall into these categories.

Unfortunately, for alot of people Karate=dogma and cliques and illusions of pedigree.
However there are always those people who just love Karate too, and hopefully you have those to train with. As long as that is so then just look for the little gems that are posted occasionally from people on here (and they do exist) and don't take the rest of it too seriously.

It's very useful to remember always that martial arts and martial arts culture are two different things.

Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/19/08 02:58 AM)

#399965 - 06/19/08 03:58 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Bossman Offline

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
I just love karate... all of human nature is bound to be contained within. In karate politics in the UK the absolute worst of human nature arises, at the tacky 'business' end the biggest charlatans live, but isn't any other 'sport' or 'industry' the same? The internet is the biggest and best form of communication and information resource in the world, but lift any stone and you find all the nutters of the world united!

MA forums are bound to collect them, unless heavily moderated they will be full of chi balls, R33L SD and what colour gi do you wear...
supporting standards in the martial arts

#399966 - 06/19/08 09:28 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: Bossman]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I find my level of irritation is related NOT to the amount of time on the internet...but the amount of time training. I suspect most folks on the internet would be there anyway due to it's part of the workday/work access. So, the ebb and flow of forum/internet stupidity is always's just how easily one moves on or can ignore irritants (instead of rising to them).

But if training is interrupted, or if there is a particular snag in training (plateaus, bad night at the dojo, extended period of solitary training) affects my internal balance. It's normal to go seeking for connection with others...but the benefits are ephemeral.

As for the bigger scene of politics...if one isn't trying to 'make a name' or a buck...seems easy enough to side-step it by doing one's own thing.

#399967 - 06/19/08 11:07 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: harlan]
underdog Offline

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I love karate. Nothing anyone else trains bothers me. Live and let live. If someone else wants to show me something, I take what i can use and leave the rest. It is a big world. As I get older and look back, I see my training and objectives have changed a lot over time. I can't figure out why I would want someone else's training to bother me.
The older I get, the better I was!

#399968 - 06/19/08 11:21 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: Seiken]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

Thanks for turning my rant into a personal attack on me. I'm sure nothing bothers you at all.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#399969 - 06/19/08 11:42 AM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Seiken -

With all due respect, it sounds like you have much more problems handling the forum than Brian does. Your post comes across much more personal and angry than Brian's.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#399970 - 06/19/08 12:59 PM Re: I love karate, but..... [Re: BrianS]
Xibalba Offline

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 499
Loc: Lansing, MI, USA

The 'that won't work' attitude from outsiders is just 289ythyut8479sjo!!!!!!!!!!

Amen, brother!

Now I believe that cross-training/MMA style training is great. But it still grinds my nether-regions to hear people spout this garbage.

I have a buddy here at work (who has never done a day of MA in his life) tell me that he would love to do MA, but did not want to do karate because "all that fancy stuff you do doesn't work on the str33t!" He has never seen me train karate (OK, TSD, but it is "korean karate" ), doesn't know how I train or how I fight, but labled my 'style' as ineffective based on name alone. Grrr...

I also had the opportunity to meet a couple of old karate buddies a couple weekends ago for an afternoon of hard sparring. A buddy of mine from BJJ came along because we wanted to work some grappling too. After watching us go a few rounds (and going a few himself), he said "Damn, your stand-up is good. I guess karate does work".

I know I am preaching to the choir, but I HATE these "TMA sux" naysayers.


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