Prize

IMO, its always a crapshoot.....the intensity of the training is often needed to really develop skills is exactly the kind of thing that increases your chances of getting hurt.

The hardest thing for a real pro to find is a sparring partner good enough and tough enough to really push them..really get them ready for a fight BUT NOT injure or hurt them......its a very fine line to walk.

The more intensly and harder you training the tougher and more ready you will be for a fight...but such intensity also up's your chances of injury.

Its why Olympic athletes are seldom in max shape all the time....actually its a pretty common problem for them...the line between being really ready and overtraining very easy to cross at that level.

My MA of choice is Iaido, which does require strong and reliable knees, from seiza on up.

November '06 I blew both knees helping a friend load a U-haul.
(Lift correctly: use your legs. Yeah, sure.)
Up the basement stairs with large 80+lb boxes does a number on knees.

MA had nothing to do with it.

I said it depends, honestly all the injuries I've seen happen are due to something getting in the way, ego, control, those types of things. When I was younger I never wanted to lose randori or a roll, and I paid the price with a bad Osoto-Gari against my MCL and various other smaller injuries from not tapping soon enough. I had a wake up call one day when I went stiff like a board against a Seoi-Otoshi and hit my neck flat on the ground, leaving me (either with a feeling of or actually) paralyzed for a few minutes. At the time I thought I was paralyzed and when I got it back I realized that it was almost all my fault and if I would've just accepted that I was thrown it would be ok.

Since that day, I tend not to over-resist and other than your typical MMA injuries (bruises, black eyes, sprained toes) I have been totally healthy in Martial Arts related activities. However, this acceptance is interesting to randori with, as some of my peers have accused me of flopping and just kind of giving up against their technique. Though I think it helps because I've now aced up my technique to make up for my lack of resistance.

"It depends" just doesn't cut it with me. Either you're fighting with real contact, meaning real blows, meaning real injuries - or you aren't.

If you're fighting with real contact you will get hit and you will be injured. If injuries aren't bad for health, what is?

I suppose what many people are thinking of is "permanent" injury. But even that is very subjective. I couldn't walk properly for a year after a bad knee injury - is one year of injury too short to call it "not bad for your health"?

This isn't a debate as far as I'm concerned. Are full/hard contact martial arts bad for health. Of course they are! Will they impact on your health "permanently" - well, that might depend... largely on luck.

Despite that, do you run the risk of a permanent injury? Of course you do - as with any contact sport (including the various football codes, basketball etc.). I had dinner with the now retired striker for the Perth Glory and former Socceroo Bobby Despotovski the other night (he married into my distant family here in Perth). His list of injuries is as long as my arm. Why, in the world, would your injuries be less in an activity where your purpose is to hit people or twist their joints / choke or strangle etc.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to make this point very strongly:

If any of you are arguing the "depends" line you're either -
(a) not really contacting; or
(b) too young to see what happens in the long run; or
(c) kidding yourself; or
(d) misunderstanding the meaning of "health".

My brother almost lost his eye to an elbow strike from a very tough and highly respected fighter. He couldn't see out of it for 3 months. "Permanent" has nothing to do with "health". His health was compromised for those 3 months and the next 3 after that. Since then his eye has been okay (apart from some scarring that makes the eye look a bit squinty). Was martial arts with contact "bad" for his health? Of course. It doesn't mean he stopped his training or will stop. It's a choice you make.

Since about 1998 I've had an autoimmune related arthritis that is worst in my old injury sites. I live with pain, particularly in the back. I appreciate now that pain of any kind is pain you can do without. It affects your health. Ditto swelling, immobility or other disability, scarring etc.

The question is, IMHO, a no-brainer.

I voted yes. I think we have to look at the art one is studying. One of the things that has always, IMO, separated arts like Karate from something like MMA or boxing, is that we still see people in their Eighties or older still training in karate, wheras a lot of these full contact arts have practioners with much shorter careers. that is not to say that an eighty year old karate sensei might not be without injury from years of training, but I think the art can be more adaptable to age than others.

havnt read most of the posts, but my two cents:

I think with any sport, as you get high up it can have long term disadvantages. Running, gymnastics, football, anything. A lot of elite competitors get long term joint weakness, tendon damage, weak bones, you name it. Training fiercely and regularly in anything can produce long term boo boos.
And at an elite level, you have an elite training scheme.

But for the people going to karate or judo 3 times a week, its not really a major issue to be worried about, unless your instructor has you regularly doing a strengthening exercise hes invented

Quote:

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separated arts like Karate from something like MMA or boxing, is that we still see people in their Eighties or older still training in karate

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Exactly, your example compared a casual karate practitioner, to (I think) a professional fighter. Most old retired boxers with bad knuckles or eye sockets or whatnot, were all ex fighters.

and on the injuries aspect as in getting a bruised shin or something. Harden the **** up I say.

Are proffessional fighters or fighters not MEANT to hurt each other?
Thats the whole point.
If I fight you and take you out,howver I do it,then my goal is complete.The injury is your problem.You knew the risks.
So ,of course a fighter WANTS to damage the other person.
So injurys to the opponent is good for the winner.
Or good for the person who has defended themselves in SD.
Sounds harsh but violence is and it cant be escaped if fighting.
Plus every one should expect and accept to get hurt somehow if involved in a fight or SD situation.

Picking up injuries in training is different I guesse though could be argued if its consitent injurys its just not good training.Or bad luck.Or idiot training partners.

Like CXT said, it's a crapshoot.

You can get injured walking down the street. The risk of injury rises with each step up in intensity of the activity. Conditioning helps prevent this, but you're never immune from it.

Prize,
First I was just playing with you on the other thread. Injuries suck. I have had a few. The elephant on my chest thing was complete hyperbole.

I don't think that I've ever led anyone to believe that I'm "hardcore" in any way. In fact what we do is still called "no contact". Still, to be honest, what we do is harder than most people want to go.

Even though that is the case over the years I have had broken toes, fingers, ribs, a knee fracture an ACL tear and a random assortment of other injuries. Stuff happens. The longer you drive a car the more ding's you are going to have on the finish. If you are lucky you can avoind a collision.
All that being said...

I went to the doctor the other day. They gave me the three page list of questions to answer. I got to the end of the three pages of medical questions and did not have to put a "check" in any box. I actually drew in another box at the bottom of the page and wrote "Damn, I'm Doin' GREAT" next to it and checked it.

Trying to avoid pain is no way to go through life. Learning from it is.

As others have alluded to. I say yes because pending age and preparation they can cause injuries. Its not uncommon for average skilled pupils to sustain injuries after competetion not that its not enjoyable pending what kind of injuries and no matter what it still hurts. I believe that contact is necessary in order to get the feel of what we are doing and there is such a thing as a neccessary risk but its short sighted to believe that you will spar full contact and not get hurt.

And this new attitude of not tapping trying to counter a lock (that some pro MMA have adapated) is just for them at practice its Tap before it Snap!!! One or two attempts then tap, hell you ain't fighting for money or a belt. Which is the opposite of what we use to do tapping to soon.

Contact sports and Martial arts are prone to injuries ask a boxer/wrestler/football/Basket ball player at highschool or college level let a lone Pro to show U his injuried knuckle, knee, ankle or shoulder. Hey asked a Hockey player to say cheese.

Full contact Martial arts is worse or no different bc its purpose is to hurt the other guy. So Yes but it hurts so good sometimes, sometimes it just HURTS!!