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#399406 - 06/12/08 11:46 PM College aikido
Kelsey Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 6
Hello!

In a few months I am going to attend a college in which they have an aikido class. I am considering joining up in order to get something different than my taekwondo background. I was just wondering if there are any things I should be aware of. Is aikido a good art for a young woman to practice? Do you think it's something I can sustain over the years/i.e. is it an affordable art? Gomen if this is a thread that y'all have had to deal with, but I couldn't find one over the first couple of pages.
Just wanted some advice from the aikidoka community.
_________________________
Proverbs 25:28 A person without self-control is as defenseless as a city with broken down walls.

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#399407 - 06/13/08 12:30 AM Re: College aikido [Re: Kelsey]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If I had a dollar for every question like this... :rolleyes:

Go watch a class... see if you like it. Or try it... see if you like it. The rest of your questions is unimportant.

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#399408 - 06/13/08 06:12 AM Re: College aikido [Re: Kelsey]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
It's a good art for almost anyone IMAO!!

As Eyrie said, go look at the class. See what you think; take it from there. For what it is worth there are a lot of woman I know who study Aikido and they all have found it very rewarding.

Your question seems to underline your curiosity about Aikido. The only way to find out for sure is to go along to class and try it for yourself!

Good luck.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#399409 - 06/13/08 06:12 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
Kelsey Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 6
Thanks, guys. I guess it does get annoying to see this many threads on the same topic. When I have something real to discuss, I'll bring it!
_________________________
Proverbs 25:28 A person without self-control is as defenseless as a city with broken down walls.

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#399410 - 06/13/08 11:16 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Kelsey]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Why bother studying the one martial art in the world that is even LESS practical taekwondo?

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#399411 - 06/14/08 05:30 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I believe the forum rules state that members are to refrain from art bashing. If you choose to denigrate your own art, that's your perogative... but to dismiss something you aren't familiar with and obviously don't understand is to assume someone else is equally ignorant.


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#399412 - 06/14/08 06:21 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
I have 25 years experience in TKD--I think that makes me "familiar." And aikido practioners need to spend more time critically assessing their own art and not lashing out at anyone and everyone who points out the bloody obvious: it is a beautiful, graceful, but utter impractical martial art.

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#399413 - 06/14/08 11:10 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
File -

I think what Eyrie meant was "stop being a d1ck." Your post was even "less practical" than what you feel aikido and TKD are. Did you recommend anything else or give any type of positive contribution? No.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it would be better to be more productive with your posts. You come across like an angry 13 year old on Sherdog.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#399414 - 06/14/08 03:52 PM Re: College aikido [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
It could have been worse. She could have said she was going to college to become a cop.
_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#399415 - 06/14/08 08:56 PM Re: College aikido [Re: MattJ]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
If you'd read any of my posts (and I've posted scores of them), you would know I have been quite "productive" in making suggestions. Trouble is, people would rather lie and say, "it's the artist, not the art."

But since you would like a positive contribution, here you go: if this young woman wants to pursue a self-defense art, she might want to try an art that at least attempts to teach self-defense. Jujistu, judo, boxing, MMA--all are good choices.

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#399416 - 06/15/08 01:05 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I have 25 years experience in TKD--I think that makes me "familiar." And aikido practioners need to spend more time critically assessing their own art and not lashing out at anyone and everyone who points out the bloody obvious: it is a beautiful, graceful, but utter impractical martial art.


Uh huh... familiar WITH TKD... NOT aikido. How much time have you actually spent learning/training in aikido? With whom? For how long? It may be bloody obvious to you... but "practical" for what purpose?

How about ALL martial artists should spend time critically assesing their own training... and not just aikido practitioners?

So instead of lashing out emotively and pointing out your obviously limited experience and biased opinions, perhaps you could provide a little more considered analytical thought and address the topic directly?

BTW, I have done TKD, jujitsu and kempo-jutsu... and there's nothing in any of those arts which is inconsistent with the basic principles of aikido.

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#399417 - 06/15/08 04:55 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Fileboy

Have to agree with Eyrie here. Until you study it properly yourself, how do you REALLY know how good/bad it is?

If you are still unconvinced, go to Shodokan Hombu in Osaka or Yoshinkan Honbu in Tokyo and tell them how useless Aikido is, then proceed to show them how it is done.

I have already posted in the past stories of people using Aikido to defend themselves, not going over it again. I even posted a clip of a LVPD police office using Aikido to down a criminal.... and explained how it was Aikido and not just a "push".

If you want to be taken seriously on this you have to walk the walk... go to an Aikido class and see what you make of it. Tell them your concerns and see if they can do anything about it. There a plenty of places in Chicago to train:

http://www.myaa.info/DojoLocation.html

http://www.aikidomac.org/Contact/Contact.asp

http://www.asu.org/chicago/

Jirgo Kano, Founder of Judo (an art you study) was so impressed by Aikido that he sent many of his top students, including Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki, to study Aikido. But hey, what did he know? If only you were there to tell him why Aikido was "useless"...

The advice I gave the original poster still stands: go try Aikido and make of it what you will. I would give much the same advice to you too.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#399418 - 06/15/08 09:12 AM Re: College aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
While I have not formally studied aikido, I have trained with many practioners over the past couple of decades. None could defend themselves worth a @#$%. And these were not dumb people, just people who chose an art that has zero to do with self-defense. People interested in self-defense need aikido the way fish need hairdryers.

As for the LVPD officer video, there is no reason to believe he studies aikido. Strikes to the neck are basic to most every martial art, and are widely practiced within law enforcement. Like the endlessly cited quote from Kano, calling that "aikido" shows me how desperate the aikido community is to show some evidence--any evidence--of their non-martial art in action.

And I'll only agree to go to Japan if you pay for the ticket.

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#399419 - 06/15/08 09:30 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Well now lets just hold on here...

Who was the author of the thread entitled:

" Videos of aikido IN ACTUAL USE? "

Now lets think, who was it who started that inflammatory thread... let think FILEBOY, who was it now FILEBOY. Do you know who it was FILEBOY!!!!?

Not so much the Aikido Community is desperate to prove anything. If they are guilty of anything, it is wasting time responding to threads like that. Its incredibly hard to find videos of ANY martial arts in use in a real life situation for starters. I can only speak for myself, but I have nothing to prove to anyone.

So you trained with some people who couldn't defend themselves who had studied Aikido. So what? I meet guys in Judo class who couldn't fight for toffee. There was a particularly bad guy who was a Brown Belt who got turned over by almost everyone in class. Heaven help him if his life depended on his Judo. Does that mean Judo sucks? Of course not.

Look Fileboy, you have some sort of chip on your shoulder about Aikido and many other arts too (as I recall you aren't keen on Tai Chi Chuan either).

You admitted yourself you haven't studied Aikido. If you don't want to study it, that is fair enough. Realistically though, if someone asks for an opinion on here about Aikido, are they going to listen to you or someone like,for example, Wristtwister, who has studied it for 20+ years? Do you think anyone is going to take what you say that seriously on the subject? And if they aren't, why even bother posting about in the first place? You want to seem the aikido forum alight with Flame Wars??? I don't get why someone would talk so strongly about something they admit they have not expertize/experience in.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#399420 - 06/15/08 09:30 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
eyrie,

As I said in an earlier post, I never formally studied aikido, but trained with many (dozens) of aikido practioners over a period of two decades. Not one I ever met could defend him or herself effectively. And they were not dumb people--they simply chose a poor self-defense art.

By your logic, only those completely immersed in aikido, with extensive practice and many years of training, are qualified to comment on it. But that pretty much excludes any aikido critics from the discussion--it is like saying the only people qualified to speak on Christianity are believing Christians!

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#399421 - 06/15/08 09:45 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
First of all, the name is Prizewriter.

Secondly, I am not saying you shouldn't comment on it. I am saying that your comments probably won't carry as much weight when compared with someone who has actual experience of Aikido. If you don't know anything about a topic, be it Aikido or anything else, how much credence do you think your opinion will have?

Can I ask, where did you find out that these Aikidoka couldn't defend themselves? Was it in a Judo match? A TKD sparring session? A NHB/MMA contest? Were you walking with them down the street as they got attacked?


Edited by Prizewriter (06/15/08 09:46 AM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#399422 - 06/15/08 07:44 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

eyrie,

As I said in an earlier post, I never formally studied aikido, but trained with many (dozens) of aikido practioners over a period of two decades. Not one I ever met could defend him or herself effectively. And they were not dumb people--they simply chose a poor self-defense art.

By your logic, only those completely immersed in aikido, with extensive practice and many years of training, are qualified to comment on it. But that pretty much excludes any aikido critics from the discussion--it is like saying the only people qualified to speak on Christianity are believing Christians!


Who are these people you claim you "defeated"? What level of experience/expertise did they have? What was the format and rules of engagement? Who witnessed and adjudicated the event?

So, we only have YOUR say-so... and that's about as believable as "trust me, I'm from the IRS and I'm here to HELP you"... or "God exists because I'm a Christian".

Sure, no one's stopping you from commenting or this thread.... but to openly admit not having any experience or expertise in the art, and to state that it is about as practical as hairdryers for fish, based on a dubious and unabashed claim that it is so because you "beat" a few practitioners that, according to you, were not your match... is sloppy thinking and reeks of an art bashing VTG challenge, the likes we have not seen since Hedgehogey and the Bullsh!to beatdown.

I don't bash TKD, and we would all think it gentlemanly if you refrained from it as well. At least it didn't take me 25 years to realize the limited utility of TKD in its rapidly degenerating format of sportive contests. Still, after 1.5yrs of TKD, I got what I got out of it and moved on... I suggest you do the same.

And if you want a beatdown, you need to pay ur own way to storm the dojo... otherwise, it just reads like a VTG armchair toss-off.

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#399423 - 06/15/08 08:00 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

Why bother studying the one martial art in the world that is even LESS practical taekwondo?




Quote:

I have 25 years experience in TKD--I think that makes me "familiar."




so taekwondo is not practical, yet you took 25 years of your life to study it? couldn't be that bad could it? if memory serves me right from reading past posts, it was ATA taekwondo. wasn't it? it would be helpful if you had clarified by saying ATA taekwondo, which in almost every case is less practical than other TKD systems.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#399424 - 06/15/08 08:39 PM Re: College aikido [Re: TKD_X]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

so taekwondo is not practical, yet you took 25 years of your life to study it?


Precisely... and as impractical as it is, he still somehow managed to "defeat" another "even less practical" art. Pretty dubious claim to fame.

25 years is a long time to come to grips though... kinda like being married to a woman for that long and realizing what a cow she was to begin with. Very sad indeed.


Edited by eyrie (06/15/08 08:40 PM)

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#399425 - 06/15/08 10:07 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Before this gets out of hand, further derailed or locked, I should point out that not everyone studies a MA for the same reasons. Everyone's reasons and goals for pursuing a MA is DIFFERENT.

If practical SD is your cup-o-cha, find a MA to suit. If you want to study something like iaido/kyudo for aesthetic or meditative reasons, do it. If you want to do taiji for health, do it. Just don't come here and wave your banner of practicality.

Bottomline, do something that you will enjoy and stick at for a few years. Or better yet, find a club or teacher that match your personal preferences and goals.

Everything else people may say is inconsequential fluff... do what YOU love and everything else falls into place. May your training be fulfilling and give you endless enjoyment... which is far better than learning something for the sake of learning something, or worse yet, for the wrong reasons.

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#399426 - 06/15/08 10:37 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
i would also like to respectfully ask that ATA taekwondo not be considered an accurate representation of all TKD systems. it unfairly makes all TKD look bad when it isn't.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#399427 - 06/15/08 11:40 PM Re: College aikido [Re: TKD_X]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
IMO, nothing really is an honest representation of anything.

Fundamentally, all MA are based on variations of the same principles and philosophical doctrines. Each art tends to focus on specific aspects and specialize in specific areas which provide a perceived strategic and/or tactical advantage.

But if you're going to compare apples to apples, make sure it's the same genus and species...

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#399428 - 06/16/08 04:07 AM Re: College aikido [Re: TKD_X]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
All of which is compounded by the fact Fileboy has admitted in the past using TKD in a SD situation. As I recall, he kicked an attacker in the head during a confrontation.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=3&vc=1

From Fileboys post in the above thread:

"Lord knows I have plenty of criticisms to make of TKD. However, believe it or not, kicking to the head is not as crazy as it sounds. The one time I ever used a TKD techniques to get out of a jam was when a nutjob approach me in a park and I whacked him in the head with a round kick. He went down and stayed down. Although it all happened too quick to analyze in complete detail, one thing stands out to this day: I could tell the guy never saw the kick coming. This sounds strange until you realize most people are not martial artist and do not expect to get kicked in the head."

Walking, talking contradiction!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#399429 - 06/16/08 05:03 AM Re: College aikido [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Look, every MA will give you some basic level of pugilistic skill. They all work off the same basics... footwork, bodywork, what to do with the hands and feet, response under pressure etc.

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#399430 - 06/26/08 04:50 PM Re: College aikido [Re: TKD_X]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Actually it was ITF taekwondo. I stuck with it because I loved the art--loved the patterns, the discipline, the whole training process. But I would never describe it as a particularly practical art.

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#399431 - 07/01/08 02:24 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
fileboy: Rather than lock this thread straight away, I thought I'd wait to see if perhaps you would qualify your argument a little more. You didn't. Same old "all Aikido sucks because I've met dozens and they all sucked."

There are a lot of problems with an argument such as this. Firstly, the fact that the data you supply to validate your claim as to the worthlessness of Aikido, as regards its self defence capabilities, is completely subjective and, therefore, worthless.

Secondly, you seem to have absolutely no first hand knowledge of the art itself. I would very much like you to detail one or two specific instances in which you yourself witnessed a dedicated, long term (i.e. competent) Aikidoka beaten easily for you to decide the art has 0% value for self defence. My guess would be it was in TKD class, or some 'friendly' sparring time after or before class. In any of these sceanerios Aikido is at a MAJOR disadvantage before the engagement even began.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#399432 - 07/13/08 03:28 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Ames]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Ames, I cannot imagine what would qualify as "objective" data in an area like this. How can any martial art be "objectively" evaluated? Impossible. Your demand for objective evluation is therefor a red herring.

Likewise, you seem to define those with "first hand knowledge" as long-term aikido practioners. Another red herring: any long time aikido practioner is, by definition, someone who believes 100% in their art.

So it seems that in order to voice an opinion, I would have to be a dedicated, long-term practioner of aikido who had somehow devised a purely objective (whatever that means) measure of aikido's efficacy. An impossible, and therefor fraudulent, standard.

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#399433 - 07/13/08 09:02 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I see... and that makes your subjective opinion, based on your anecdotal evidence, a valid fact... because you say so?

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#399434 - 07/21/08 12:12 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
aikiflips Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 1
Y'know, if you say it's no good then that's fine. I'm willing to accept that. All I know is that it's worked for me, so I like it. =) Really there's a lot that goes into a conflict that could have absolutely nothing to do with the marital art that they're using. Maybe they're not very good, maybe they're nervous, maybe they have some other mental block? Congratulations on your victories!

A lot of marital arts, TKD included were started as serious defenses against attackers and the ones which have survived since old times really shows that their art was resiliant, whether it was mere conditioning, a few good ideas to keep in mind, or if it was a hard-core military art. That art has been studied for years on end by people who believe in it and use some or all of the concepts. I s'pose there are some who use it to physically resolve conflict, there are some who use the philosophical concepts to either avoid or diffuse a situation. Whatever you use it for, however you use it, is your own choice.

Speaking from experience, there are a lot of people who don't train for even something such as sparring. I've had vastly different experiences getting into the ring as opposed to inside the dojo and out on the street. Each one has taught me a lot and has offered me new insight into how I learn and how I teach. The biggest hurdle is getting experience cross-training with different arts. Where TKD may be more intuitively a fighting art, Aikido takes time and a breadth of experience that is often not taught in the dojos. Come to think of it, most internal/soft arts are like that, with a harsh learning curve at the beginning. Finding a school or even a training partner who's able to work with you to expose some weak links in your training is absolutely necessary with any art to evolve not only yourself but the art as it exists in present-day. I'll reiterate, everyone practices for a different reason, so some people may just practice to make themselves feel better through comraderie and exercise or meditation. That's cool too. Do what makes you happy and F-ck the rest. =) (Lil Miss Sunshine)

Ease up a bit though, there's really no need to be contentious on the threads. To the original poster, good luck and maybe you'll enjoy your time in there as much as I have! (I got started in college too!)

-Kevin

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#399435 - 07/27/08 09:04 PM Re: College aikido [Re: aikiflips]
westway50 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/07/08
Posts: 4
i would absolutely advise u to go check it out. you should do it for a few weeks and see how you like it. i started last year and i was like one of the very few people who stayed after seeing what it is like.

practicality wise, my instructors even say that it is not so practical. but you really do learn alot of practical things like entering and stuff. sometimes you will have a position where you can use an aikido move, which was amazing to me the first time i experienced that.

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#399436 - 08/10/08 03:41 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

What I am saying is that there is no evidence of any kind whatsoever you would accept. Aikido is not your art, but your religion. Fine--good luck to you.

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#399437 - 08/10/08 04:58 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I love it when people resort to personal snipes when they cannot argue the point in an adult and academic fashion.

Aikido is just one of the many things I do for fun, personal interest and enjoyment and as a form of physical activity... when I'm not doing other stuff. A religion, if I had one, is no one's business but my personal relationship with whichever deity I prefer, if I had a preference, and is germane to this discussion HOW?

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#399438 - 08/10/08 11:17 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

I was not resorting to personal snipes. You demand an "adult" and "academic" discussion of this subject but automatically dismiss any evidence that does not support your view as invalid. Of course people are going to become frustrated by that!

Here is my suggestion: I offered personal experience to suggest aikido might not be effective. Can you give me any first-hand experience of aikido's effectiveness?

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#399439 - 08/10/08 09:54 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Aikido is not your art, but your religion


If that's not a cheap shot what is it?

Sure... I'll match your anecdotal evidence and raise you some. Check the Aikido in MMA thread. Lots of personal
anecdotes in there.

You have your perspective that it's ineffectual, and I have mine that it's not. It doesn't mean I'm dismissing your point, nor am I saying I'm right and you're wrong. But you seem to be suggesting that your point is more valid than mine? Does a cheap shot like that make you a better person for it, or does it help make your point more valid?

See, the thing is, I don't have to agree with your assessment. We can have a difference of opinion + personal anecdotal evidence to support both perspectives.

You see the difference now?

But my real point was, what has "effectiveness", or otherwise, got to do with THIS topic? I would suggest that an innocent question about whether the OP should do aikido or not has less to with effectiveness than identifying what her goals for wanting to study aikido (or any other MA) is.

IF effectiveness (for what??) is one of her primary concerns, then she can take whatever anecdotal evidence either of us can offer, into consideration.





Edited by eyrie (08/10/08 10:00 PM)

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#399440 - 08/11/08 02:05 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Eyrie,

It was not a cheap shot because I used the word "religion" figuratively, not literally. What I meant was that for you, aikido's efficacy is a matter of deeply held faith and not based on empirical evidence.

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#399441 - 08/11/08 06:55 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It's still a cheap shot ad hominem, calling into question my objectivity based on a presumption that it is clouded by some deeply held "faith". FYI, I do and have done a number of MA - not just Aikido. My objectivity is based on equally empirical TESTING, not just from observation AND experience in a number of MA - and not without due regard to system and theory of MA in general.

So what makes YOUR "empirical" evidence more valid than mine??? Because I simply don't agree with it?

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#399442 - 08/13/08 01:48 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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What did your empirical tests consist of?

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#399443 - 08/13/08 07:25 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Besides not being germane to this topic, I asked you first... (see my post #16004155 in this thread)... to which I still have not had a response.

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#399444 - 08/14/08 02:59 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Eyrie,

I have offered you plenty of evidence to back up my doubts about aikido's efficacy, on this thread and on others. So have many other posters. You have, without exception, dismissed every bit of it as insufficient, biased, unscientific, uninformed, dishonest, etc, etc ad nauseum.

So I ask you again, what would be a good test of a martial art's efficacy? I'll bet my left arm you will not be able to come up with one.

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#399445 - 08/14/08 06:14 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
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Loc: QLD, Australia
No... you're deflecting the question. You generalized the efficacy based on your own unsubstantiated and personal anecdotal evidence. I asked who these aikidoka you "tested" were, what rank were they, how long they had trained for, in what format was the "test" conducted, what were the specific rules of engagement. See post #16004155.

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#399446 - 08/14/08 08:04 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie,
these guys just don't change. No matter what information you give them, they've got their mind made up that Aikido sucks (probably because they tried it and sucked at it), so the "test" for them is simple... Is it Aikido?... then it sucks.

Another one of my pastimes is shooting...pistols primarily, but long guns as well (.300 Winchester Magnum). I'm sure that using those skills, I couldn't defeat them at any distance either, based on their thinking (or the lack thereof).

We train in a school with about 650 students of all different arts... kickboxers, kempo, BJJ, MMA, but none of them who have seen me or our Aikido class train have ever made the claims that we read here. They are both more respectful, and give us a wide berth when it comes to "confronting us" and/or issuing challenges... and they've seen me train. Wonder why that is?

Our class is usually warming up at the same time as the kickboxing class, and when warming up on a heavy bag, I've noticed that they stop their punching training to watch mine... wonder why? I know I'm hitting it with more power and more solidly, so I'm almost sure they don't think that "Aikido striking" is too weak.

It says a lot about how much these guys actually know when they're that "hard headed" about Aikido being weak just because it's softer than grappling (at least as far as they know).

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399447 - 08/14/08 08:40 PM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Well, it's hard to point out flaws in someone's logical reasoning... which is the reason I'm taking this particular tack. Often, the emotive response is precisely what these people are accusing me of. It's got nothing to do with whatever perceived "vested" emotional interest I have, but the logic of their reasoning.

Assertion: I've bested some aikidoka in contests - which is questionable on a number of fronts - and I'm not talking about the veracity of such a claim - which I don't doubt. Which is why I asked the specific questions - who, how long, what format, rules etc.

Conclusion: Because A, therefore aikido = ineffective. Yet another cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious argument.

It's like saying, and let's take an extreme example: The majority of poor people are in the minority racial groups. Poor people often resort to crime to survive. Therefore all racial minorities are criminals.

Huh? Come again?

Let's say that again: The majority of aikidoka practise Aikido. Aikidoka are generally ineffective. Therefore Aikido is ineffective.

BTW, IL isn't far from SC is it...?


Edited by eyrie (08/14/08 08:53 PM)

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#399448 - 08/14/08 10:06 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Yeah,
getting to the logic of some people's arguments is like looking for a particular needle in a haystack full of needles. The premise is, however, that the argument is actually made from logic and not simply from simple predisposition. When they can't (or won't) supply the details, it's usually B-S.

IL is about 600 (+ or - 300) miles from SC, depending on where in IL you're going. It's a big state, and you can drive for 13 1/2 hours getting to Chicago from here, which is in the middle of the state. (That's where Toyoda Sensei's dojo is). He used to fly into Charlotte or Raleigh, NC and I would drive about north 2 to 4 hours to train with him. He would also go to Atlanta,Ga., which is about 2 hours South.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399449 - 08/15/08 04:01 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Kelsey]
erg Offline
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Posts: 1
In my experience women tend to adapt to Aikido more quickly than men. I've been told that this is because they tend to be less rigid in body and mind. I encourage you to find a reputable Sensei and give it a try.

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#399450 - 08/15/08 05:05 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Eyrie,

Here are answers to your questions, inorder:

1) Who were they? Is this a request for names, social security numbers and so on? They were aikido practioners from Chicago.

2)How long had they trained for? The average was 6 to 7 years. One older student I know trained for 16 years.

3)The "test" format varied, but usually consisted of one-on-one free sparring. We engaged each other from two to three minutes at a time, or until one participant called "time out."

4)The rules of engagement: I try to hit you; you try to stop me.

In every case and with every aikido practioner, they were IMMEDIATELY overwhelmed. Most had to submit within a minute or so; a few persisted and were knocked down, kocked into walls and, in one case, knocked cold for about 10 seconds.

Okay eyrie. Now you want tell me why this all proves nothing.

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#399451 - 08/15/08 07:57 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
1. Your statistical sample is limited to a small localized area. Statistically, it cannot be held to be valid because of the inherent statistical bias with small samples.

2. There is a significant variance in experience between you and your opponents. If you have 25 years experience, a fairer contest should be with opponents closer to the same number of years experience as you. An average of 6-7 years indicates low level yudansha (I'm guessing shodan to nidan level). So your "statistical sample" is already inherently biased because you're comparing apples to oranges.

3. I would think that a fairer test format would entail a minimum of 3 rounds of 3 mins each. Winner should be decided on points scored, and adjudicated by at least 3 independent judges. Varying points should be awarded on hits to head, body, submission by pinning/locking, throwing to the ground etc.... as one would normally in any other competition format. It certainly raises the question of test validity in my mind, especially if the format was varied to begin with.

4. See #3. I would have thought that the "rules" would encompass some measure of safety for the combatants. Another question I have is did your opponents knowingly participate given these limited rules and conditions? I wouldn't have. If I knew it was going to be an a$$-beating contest, with a rule that practically says "stop me if you can", I certainly would...

You certainly cannot generalize that aikido as an art is ineffective, based on questionable test validity, limited sample sizes, and the obvious skill/experience differential. What makes you think that such a gross generalization can be valid? Rationally? Logically?

I'm not begrudging you that you may have had "wins" against a few aikidoka in the Chicago area, with far less fight experience than you, even if we only have your say-so. But that's hardly indicative of aikido in general. Fundamentally, you are saying:

A. I beat a few aikidoka - OK granted
B. Therefore Aikido is ineffective - illogical conclusion

It is illogical to conclude B, because the jump from beating a few aikidoka in a limited area, based on limited testing, does not equate to "most" aikidoka or the art of aikido in general. Statistically it is not significant enough to make that conclusion. It is a sweeping generalization.

At a stretch, the most you can say is that the standard of aikidoka in the Chicago area, based on limited sample testing, is fairly low compared to you.

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#399452 - 08/15/08 09:06 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Since Fileboy is in Chicago, he should go to the AAA's main dojo at 1016 W. Belmont Avenue and show the guys teaching the police tactical seminars how ineffective their Aikido is. Telephone number is 773-525-3141. Stephen Toyota is the chief instructor there now... Toyoda Sensei's son. I'm sure he can arrange for you to find a few "qualified Aikidoka" for you to prove your mettle.

Let them know what your rules are for "testing their art" and let them know they can unload on you. Let us know how you make out.



P.S. I'd take my insurance card with me.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399453 - 08/15/08 11:27 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Who are these people you claim you "defeated"? What level of experience/expertise did they have? What was the format and rules of engagement? Who witnessed and adjudicated the event?

So, we only have YOUR say-so... and that's about as believable as "trust me, I'm from the IRS and I'm here to HELP you"... or "God exists because I'm a Christian".





I find this statement chop full of irony coming from eyrie,lol!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399454 - 08/15/08 11:46 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
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Loc: Chicago, IL
"A. I beat a few aikidoka - OK granted
B. Therefore Aikido is ineffective - illogical conclusion

It is illogical to conclude B, because the jump from beating a few aikidoka in a limited area, based on limited testing, does not equate to "most" aikidoka or the art of aikido in general. Statistically it is not significant enough to make that conclusion. It is a sweeping generalization."

So, eyrie, how many would I have to seen beaten down (I did not overpower all of them myself; many were beaten down by others) before you would consider my sample large enough to be representative? 100? 1,000? 10,000? I suspect unless I had personally beaten up every aikido practioner alive today, you would not be convinced. If I had, you would probably tell me that while I did well agianst today's aikidoka, I would have been kicked to the curb by the "real" aikidoka of yesteryear.

Your standards of evidence are illigical, impossible--far more stringent than those required by science. A scientist understand any two hydrogen atoms bonded to an oxygen atom make water. He or she does not insist on testing every single hydrogen and oxygen atom in the universe for confirmation.

Eyrie, how many times are you willing to put your hand on a hot stove before you conclude hot stoves cause burns? Following your logic, having it happen once, or even several times, proves nothing. After all, how can you be 100% sure that somewhere in the world there is a hot stove that won't burn your hand?

I don't believe you live your life that way (you'd be long dead if you did), and I don't believe you would apply such impossible standards to anything but your beleoved aikido.

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#399455 - 08/15/08 11:53 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
As always Brian, nothing substantial to contribute except personal snipes and insults. Perhaps the entire Aikido forum should be locked to prevent Bull-shi-to trolls like you from hijacking the threads with your personal vendettas and zealotry.

There is nothing ironic about my comment. In fact I spoke to the jujitsuka I mentioned, not long ago. We are still good friends and he is still blown away by the stuff I've showed him.

So, if you want names, I can give it to you via PM. Feel free to verify my account of events with them. There is no need to drag innocent names thru this muck that you and your cohorts insist on stirring up in a public forum.

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#399456 - 08/16/08 12:02 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
VTG eyrie,

I was talking about the irony that you want names, etc...even though you yourself make claims about beating godans in goju when you were a whitebelt. Hogwash!

The thread has drifted so much that I have nothing meaningful to contribute except to point the irony in your posts. It means alot to me!!

Back to you and fileboy doing this.

It's a HUGE contribution to the forums!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399457 - 08/16/08 12:43 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

So, eyrie, how many would I have to seen beaten down (I did not overpower all of them myself; many were beaten down by others) before you would consider my sample large enough to be representative? 100? 1,000? 10,000? I suspect unless I had personally beaten up every aikido practioner alive today, you would not be convinced. If I had, you would probably tell me that while I did well agianst today's aikidoka, I would have been kicked to the curb by the "real" aikidoka of yesteryear.


No, you missed the point. And you are responding emotionally and not logically, since you obviously cannot fault the logic of the argument I put forth. And the logic is quite simple. You are making a sweeping generalization in saying that aikido as an art is ineffective, because the few you "beat" are ineffective. Even as a theoretical hypothesis that aikido is ineffective, you have too many variables to make any definitive conclusion. And if you're going to put forth a hypothesis, then the onus is on you to ensure that it cannot be refuted.

Quote:

Your standards of evidence are illigical, impossible--far more stringent than those required by science.


No, what is impossible is your logic leap from A to B with no real basis in logic. So we are to accept your argument, prima facie, no questions asked?

Quote:

A scientist understand any two hydrogen atoms bonded to an oxygen atom make water. He or she does not insist on testing every single hydrogen and oxygen atom in the universe for confirmation.


Strawman. Is all water really H2O? Heavy water (deuterium oxide), looks like water, but it has a different chemical composition and exhibits different properties. What about super-heavy water (tritium oxide)? 3H2O is most certainly not the same as H2O... and due to its highly corrosive nature, I seriously doubt you'd want to drink it. So yes, maybe you should test it's pure H2O first... unless you're willing to guarantee that all water is H2O.

Quote:

how many times are you willing to put your hand on a hot stove before you conclude hot stoves cause burns? Following your logic, having it happen once, or even several times, proves nothing. After all, how can you be 100% sure that somewhere in the world there is a hot stove that won't burn your hand?


Strawman! So, if I went down to the local TKD school and beat every single student, does that make TKD ineffective? Or did that entire school just suck? What if, after beating all the students, and then took on the sabunim, and lost? Does that make aikido ineffective? Or is TKD really effective after all...?

Quote:

I don't believe you live your life that way (you'd be long dead if you did), and I don't believe you would apply such impossible standards to anything but your beleoved aikido.


Ad hominem. Again, you are projecting an emotional response. Whereas I'm arguing against your faulty logic.

Please, google "logical fallacies" before debating with me. .. because until then I don't think you will see the flaws in your arguments.

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#399458 - 08/16/08 01:00 AM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I was talking about the irony that you want names, etc...even though you yourself make claims about beating godans in goju when you were a whitebelt. Hogwash!


I see, so you're beating your chest, and rending the clothes from your back. over the fact that I bested a goju godan in a limited format randori, and you are talking it personally as if it were a personal assault on all goju??

You can have his name too... why drag it thru your muck in a public forum? In fact, Pat M was there at the time as well... why not ask him? So I had a white belt on... what of it? My fault that a white belt was taken to imply something? LOL! Maybe ask Pat too why he used me as uke, and not his own students, when O'Sensei Kinjo came to visit. Maybe it made him look more impressive throwing a white belt instead. LOL!

Quote:

The thread has drifted so much that I have nothing meaningful to contribute except to point the irony in your posts. It means alot to me!!


Sniping from the peanut gallery... such valiant gallantry...

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#399459 - 08/16/08 01:17 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
"Strawman! So, if I went down to the local TKD school and beat every single student, does that make TKD ineffective? Or did that entire school just suck? What if, after beating all the students, and then took on the sabunim, and lost? Does that make aikido ineffective? Or is TKD really effective after all...?"

Actually, TKD is Not a particularly effective martial art. I suspected that for years, but was not able to admit it to myself until I started studying judo. While strong kicking skills are a fine thing to have, they are nowhere near as critical to self-defense as boxing and (especially) wrestling skills.

Eyrie, I think what happens sometimes is we devote so much time and energy to an art, bind it so tightly into our sense of identity, that we cannot bear to admit we have been wasting our time. In this sense at least, martial arts CAN be like religion for some people. I think you are one.

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#399460 - 08/16/08 02:23 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It seems you are not getting the point no matter how I spell it out, because it is not the answer you want to hear. Your postulation simply cannot be validated on logical grounds, and time and time again you resort to innuendo and insinuations that it is my "religion" that I'm defending, rather than looking at the logical flaws in your statements.

The problem is you can't and won't see the flaws in your reasoning. No, I think what happens is that people put their blinders and perceptive filters on and base their subjective conclusions about something, even when it is clearly pointed out to them that their reasoning is flawed.

I'm done arguing with you. Feel free to bag anything you don't understand, don't want to understand, and don't care to understand... even when it has been pointed out that you are clearly wrong.


Edited by eyrie (08/16/08 02:48 AM)

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#399461 - 08/16/08 03:34 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Loc: Chicago, IL
Whatever you say, eyrie. God bless.

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#399462 - 08/16/08 09:37 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Eyrie -

Quote:

No, you missed the point. And you are responding emotionally and not logically, since you obviously cannot fault the logic of the argument I put forth. And the logic is quite simple. You are making a sweeping generalization in saying that aikido as an art is ineffective, because the few you "beat" are ineffective. Even as a theoretical hypothesis that aikido is ineffective, you have too many variables to make any definitive conclusion. And if you're going to put forth a hypothesis, then the onus is on you to ensure that it cannot be refuted.




Once again twisting people's words. No one is claiming any scientific basis in their "postulation". He (and I) both openly admit that they are generalizations based on our personal experiences. They cannot be refuted by scientific method, because they are our experiences. I don't think that either of us have tried to claim that all Aikido was represented in any of them, merely that they have all been similar in outcome.

Quote:

Strawman. Is all water really H2O? Heavy water (deuterium oxide), looks like water, but it has a different chemical composition and exhibits different properties. What about super-heavy water (tritium oxide)? 3H2O is most certainly not the same as H2O... and due to its highly corrosive nature, I seriously doubt you'd want to drink it. So yes, maybe you should test it's pure H2O first... unless you're willing to guarantee that all water is H2O.




I find this amusingly ironic that you call a strawman on fileboy here. He clearly wrote:

Quote:

two hydrogen atoms bonded to an oxygen atom make water.




Eyrie then attempts to use his own strawman by mentioning:

Quote:

Heavy water (deuterium oxide), looks like water, but it has a different chemical composition and exhibits different properties. What about super-heavy water (tritium oxide)? 3H2O is most certainly not the same as H2O




Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Fileboy never mentioned 3H20, nor does that have any bearing whatsoever on this topic. Eyrie's argument seems to be that you cannot trust your experiences in the common world, because super-heavy water may start coming out of your faucet. I think that is unlikely.

Perhaps Eyrie thinks that Aikido schools that practice inside nuclear reactors would be more effective than regular Aikido schools? LOL.

Quote:

Strawman! So, if I went down to the local TKD school and beat every single student, does that make TKD ineffective? Or did that entire school just suck? What if, after beating all the students, and then took on the sabunim, and lost? Does that make aikido ineffective? Or is TKD really effective after all...?




Those would be your experiences. If enough other people had similar experiences, you could generalize from them. Not scientific, but not meaningless, either.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#399463 - 08/16/08 06:37 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I notice that they glossed over the opportunity to go test their theory against Aikidoka teaching the police tactical classes and acted like that post never happened. I'm sure they would find those guys very helpful in their effort to discredit Aikido in general.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399464 - 08/16/08 07:54 PM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
They also conveniently glossed over the fact that it's a logical fallacy based on the reasons I outlined. Or that logical debate is not the same thing as scientific rigour.

But somehow, my personal experiences are less valid than theirs. And the fact that I haven't generalized that all jujitsu and goju are ineffective, has also been conveniently glossed over.

They're just peeved that they can't logically prove or debate the veracity of their BELIEF, so they have to resort to forum stalking, hurling insults and innuendo, and beating down into submission any and all opposition.

What gets me is this: since Aikido is so ineffective, why continue ???

BTW, for those interested, 3H2O is still H2O, as is 2H2O (deuterium oxide) The (superscript) 3 (or 2) indicates the number of neutrons present in the hydrogen atom, making it an isotope. Certainly 2 hydrogen atoms bonded with an oxygen atom makes water. But the presence of additional neutron(s) in THE hydrogen atom changes the physical and chemical properties of water altogether. So 2 hydrogen atoms + 1 oxygen atom is not always "water". Quod Erat Demonstrandum.


Edited by eyrie (08/16/08 07:56 PM)

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#399465 - 08/16/08 08:34 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

They're just peeved that they can't logically prove or debate the veracity of their BELIEF, so they have to resort to forum stalking, hurling insults and innuendo, and beating down into submission any and all opposition.




*snort*

I have said REPEATEDLY that I am not trying to prove anything scientifically, logically, or any other way. These are my opinions and experiences. Eyrie does not want me to have them, and resorts to forum stalking, hurling insults and innuendo, ridiculous strawman arguments and beating down into submission any and all opposition.

But I don't give up easily.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#399466 - 08/16/08 09:14 PM Re: College aikido [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If you make an assertion and attempt to pass it off as fact, be prepared to back it up logically. Otherwise, anyone can say anything and not be held accountable. As a former moderator, you of all people should know that. If I ask, edited pending admin action ... and on a public forum... what does that imply or insinuate? If you don't understand that fundamental point that I'm making... then I don't know how else to make it clear, so that you understand.

BTW, ROTFL... I think you just proved my point. Who's stalking who, and who's paraphrasing who because they can't come up with a logical argument?


Edited by Zombie Zero (08/18/08 04:08 PM)

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#399467 - 08/16/08 09:52 PM eyrie has crossed the line [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Only making the point that you do the same things that you criticize others for. As for your extremely low-class and reprehensible wife-beating comment.......talk about insults and innuendo. At least I have actual experience with Aikido people to form an opinion. What you did was slander.

You have truly shown your colors. Amazed that you would stoop so low.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#399468 - 08/16/08 10:31 PM Re: eyrie has crossed the line [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
IF I asked Matt, IF I asked... as in FOR EXAMPLE, IF I asked. You GET the point now? Or maybe you didn't since you focused on the wife-beating part. Or maybe you took the question out of context to paint me as a lowlife.

As for the accusation of "criticism", get this... it's a logical debate? The fact still stands. Here is fileboy's original post which started all of this:
Quote:

Why bother studying the one martial art in the world that is even LESS practical taekwondo?


The implication that Aikido is impractical... for who? for what purpose? It's these unqualified statements that I question. And for the record, I have demonstrated each of my arguments logically, which I cannot say the same for my worthy adversaries...

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#399469 - 08/16/08 10:42 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
eyrie,

That is the worst personal attack I have witnessed on these forums. Your ass should banned immediately you piece of sh1t.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399470 - 08/16/08 11:10 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I see your edumakayshun has served you well, or may be not so well, since you also missed the point. I suggest to read my post again... perhaps this time a little more s-l-o-w-l-y.

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#399471 - 08/16/08 11:20 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
Zombie Zero Offline
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The next person who posts anything even remotely insulting is going on a 24-hour vacation.

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#399472 - 08/16/08 11:20 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Uhmmm...guys...I know this is getting kinda personal...but just wanted to interject something.

Regarding the 'wife beating' comment...that is kinda a classic, and well-known example of a certain type of interaction. Another in the same veing is 'have you stopped kicking your dog yet?' And I didn't think it came across as a personal thing.

Just my .02 pennies from someone with no stake in the conversation.

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#399473 - 08/17/08 12:22 AM Re: College aikido [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Precisely... it was an example to elucidate a point, and not a personal insult directed at Matt. And I think I'm owed an apology for being called a "piece of sh1t".

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#399474 - 08/17/08 02:43 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
...unless someone can prove you are a peice of sh1t.

but I don't think anyone can, since no one has actually met you in person.

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#399475 - 08/17/08 04:51 AM Re: College aikido [Re: Ed_Morris]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Being on middle ground here;

Eyrie wasn't insulting anyone.

He's arguing follow a strict set of principals; Logical Fallacies.

I did it in university and trust me, I know what's it's like trying to argue with a master in this subject. It's like having your own words backfire at you.

Eyrie, you should become a lawyer. Probably would freak out both the judge and jury.

~Donnie
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#399476 - 08/17/08 05:09 AM Re: College aikido [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

...unless someone can prove you are a peice of sh1t.

but I don't think anyone can, since no one has actually met you in person.


Ed! You're back! Withdrawl symptoms huh? LOL!

Well, the fact that I am (or not) is irrelevant. The fact that I was called one is relevant. Besides, my door is open anytime for anyone who wants to prove it.


Edited by eyrie (08/17/08 05:34 AM)

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#399477 - 08/17/08 04:23 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Taison]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Taison,
http://www.kampaibudokai.org/KampaiBudokai/Saotome.htm

Just because Matt can be a smarta$$ doesn't make him smart. The whole view of how little any of these guys know about Aikido and what it can and can't do would stagger the mind.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399478 - 08/17/08 06:59 PM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

The next person who posts anything even remotely insulting is going on a 24-hour vacation.




Wristtwister wrote:
Quote:

Just because Matt can be a smarta$$ doesn't make him smart.





Good idea Zombie, but wouldn't the above statement be considered as "remotely insulting"?



Quote:

The whole view of how little any of these guys know about Aikido and what it can and can't do would stagger the mind.





Grady, the problem is, not very many have been or are willing to step up and demonstrate this. Talk is great, but somewhere the rubber has to meet the road. Does that seem like a rational statment? Is that somewhat understandable?

I'm not even talking about an all-out fight. Just a live demonstration against someone giving back, in a sparring sense, etc.



-John

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#399479 - 08/17/08 07:53 PM Re: College aikido [Re: JKogas]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
A much better idea would be to stick to the thread topic... instead of using it as a soapbox for various personal agendas. Start a new thread if you (read "anyone") want to do that.


Edited by eyrie (08/17/08 07:54 PM)

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#399480 - 08/17/08 07:56 PM Re: College aikido [Re: JKogas]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Are you volunteering? LOL!

You know...I just noted...kogas and grady are only one state apart. I'd pay for the gas mileage for the two of you to meet up and videotape it. A meetup between kogas/aliveness and aikido. A clash of the titans...so to speak?

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#399481 - 08/17/08 08:17 PM Re: College aikido [Re: JKogas]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
No need to put me on administrative leave, John... I'll do it myself. Apparently it's okay for Matt, Brian, Fileboy, and a few others to snipe and snort at everyone else, but they need "administrative protection" for their stupidity... and I stand by the statement... just being a smarta$$ doesn't necesarily mean that you're smart... goes for anybody, not just Matt.

The question was regarding Fileboy's trumpeted victories over Aikido players in Chicago... I gave him a place to go find qualified Aikido people to test his theory... complete with address and phone number... but I gusess that's "insulting" to make him do it with people teaching police tactical classes instead of shodan level Aikido students.

Sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but the total sum of what this bunch doesn't know about Aikido would fill volumes. They're worse than teenagers.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399482 - 08/17/08 09:11 PM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Let me clarify this a second time: I did not personally whollop a large group of aikido practioners.

Throughout the years I studied taekwondo and (later) judo, my fellow students and I would often visit other schools and train with students from other arts. This was something MAists all over town did. Frankly, it was my relative helplessness before certain judoka that got me interested in judo.

Among the people we trained with were several aikido practioners. I am sorry to say this, but what was most remarkable about them is how quickly and completely they collapsed in the face of any attack. What else can I do but question aikido's effectiveness?

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#399483 - 08/17/08 10:18 PM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
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Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Perhaps this is not obvious, but there is a difference between "training", a friendly "test" of skill, and an all-out beat-down. Judging by the embellishments you used, and your word choices, e.g. "they were IMMEDIATELY overwhelmed"... it leads one to wonder if such people you were "training" with assumed it was a friendly "test" of skill, when in fact it was intended to be an all-out beat-down on your part.

What is remarkable is despite having the logic flaw pointed out, no matter how you vaguely attempt to reword it, you are still saying the same thing - Aikido is ineffective, rather than the more accurate statement that the aikidoka you supposedly "trained" with were ineffective.

In fact, I would be more willing to accept that statement as a prima facie argument than what you are blatantly generalizing.

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#399484 - 08/18/08 09:30 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
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Loc: Chicago, IL
So everyone else I trained with over the years, from taekwondo practitioners to judoka to karateka, got the idea, but the aikidoka didn't? How strange!

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#399485 - 08/18/08 09:45 AM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Grady,

I never claimed to know much about aikido. I have seen some aikidoka and was less than impressed. I can only go by my limited experience in the art.

I started training in goju because I was very impressed by their training and abilities in comparison to the tkd I was doing.

eyrie,

funny that you keep wanting to 'demonstrate' on us. It's convenient that you are in in "australia" and have never met anyone in person from the forums,very peculiar. VTG all the way and I stand by my earlier post, you won't be getting any apology from me.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399486 - 08/18/08 10:22 AM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Several years ago a friend on line wrote that she was taking up Aikido after several years in a competitive MA. She was shocked that in the first few classes she was expected to "beat" everyone in the class one after another.

I carefully explained to her that it was a form of practice (ex. Tsuki Kotegaeshi). The two words in the name are important. The first is the style of attack (punch) and the second is the style of defense (twisting the wrist). It was a way to learn to respond to people of all sizes and skills. "Beating" had no part in it. That was a concept she had never encountered before.

But, of course, no one had told her that.


Edited by iaibear (08/18/08 10:30 AM)

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#399487 - 08/18/08 10:32 AM Re: College aikido [Re: iaibear]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
LOL! Funny...I just went to a seminar attended mostly by karate and kung fu practicioners. One fellow stood out...a very nice...but extremely uncoordinated and hapless fellow. A young aikidoka of only 4 years. No one would work with him...so at one point I walked over and presented myself as a partner. 'Hi...you look like you need someone to beat on. Can I be of service?'

It wasn't just that the concepts were foreign to him...but also the 'way of moving' was different as well.

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#399488 - 08/18/08 12:38 PM Re: College aikido [Re: harlan]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
This thread has taken on a life of its own. It no more has to do with the original poster asking about Aikido but too many people standing on their soap boxes trying to yell at the other.

Quoted By Eyrie:
Quote:

If you make an assertion and attempt to pass it off as fact, be prepared to back it up logically. Otherwise, anyone can say anything and not be held accountable. As a former moderator, you of all people should know that. If I ask, edited pending admin action and on a public forum... what does that imply or insinuate? If you don't understand that fundamental point that I'm making... then I don't know how else to make it clear, so that you understand.




I found this extremely TASTELESS. While you have worded this so it does not directly say Matt was guilty of this offense I still found this an attack on his character and I think you could have chosen another example. How would you feel reading a post to yourself and this crap is in it? I personally had to refrain and retype this message to take out the same time of $HIT you did to Matt to get my point across however realizing I'm not that low of a person I did not feel like attacking anybody's character; even yours. While you wrote this in a particular way ... I think you knew exactly what you were doing and so that does make you an A$$.


Quoted by Wristtwister:
Quote:

Just because Matt can be a smarta$$ doesn't make him smart.




What is with the attacks on Matt. Wrist, you certainly have shown you are an A$$.


Quoted by ZombieZero:
Quote:

The next person who posts anything even remotely insulting is going on a 24-hour vacation.




Zombie, should you feel I need a time out for this then please proceed BUT ONLY if the previous two offenders are also penalized! I've never had any problems directly with you in the past however I hope that you find that my responses are due to the attacks on Matt's character and as a former Mod, as an active member and as a friend of Matt's that I take offense to this and was my right to stand up for him as I would for any member I value on this forum. If I am to be penalized for that so be it!


Edited by Zombie Zero (08/18/08 04:10 PM)

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#399489 - 08/18/08 03:56 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Dereck]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
eyrie's post hopefully will be addressed accordingly.

Also, I hope we can keep this debate open without anymore insults or personal attacks. I'll do my part.

Since we are still talking about aikido's effectiveness and eyrie and wrist have both said that good aikido is hard to find then couldn't we assume that the art is lacking in effectiveness overall? No different than any other ma imo.
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#399490 - 08/18/08 04:14 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
That I can agree with.

As an example, TKD has seen its fair share of bashing and to be honest most warrant it however this does not mean the art is ineffective. I've seen first hand what good quality TKD and its effectiveness. With that said I'm sure that Aikido may suffers from the same problems; as I'm sure other martial arts do.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#399491 - 08/18/08 04:14 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Dereck]
Zombie Zero Offline
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Registered: 06/17/05
Posts: 1992
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Dereck,

That comment was not directed at you, or anyone in specific.
It was a reminder for everyone to try and be civil.
This thread is getting out of hand.

As far as eyrie's comment, I have edited it out. I was not privy to certain information when it was made, and did not realize the gravity of it. Now that I do, I'm going to speak to the parties involved, and will make a decision based on those conversations.

Z
_________________________
In my walk in the martial way, my hope is that as long as I live, I will always be a beginner.

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#399492 - 08/18/08 04:17 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Zombie Zero]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
ZZ, I know is was not directed at me and understood, however I wanted to make sure that you knew I was willing to accept the consequences for my actions in order to defend my friend Matt.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#399493 - 08/18/08 04:21 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Dereck]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

As an example, TKD has seen its fair share of bashing and to be honest most warrant it however this does not mean the art is ineffective. I've seen first hand what good quality TKD and its effectiveness. With that said I'm sure that Aikido may suffers from the same problems; as I'm sure other martial arts do.




Exactly Dereck and that is the only point I have been trying to make.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399494 - 08/18/08 06:12 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Well then great minds think alike.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#399495 - 08/18/08 07:46 PM Re: College aikido [Re: Dereck]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I see that the point I'm trying to make has gone over most heads... and it's reassuring to note that it's OK for the certain VTG "club" members to insult others while others are censored... simply because the point wasn't understood. So I can now safely assume that either the general intelligence level here is fairly low?? Or can I assume that the standard of education in AR is fairly low??? Because I'm sure neither are true... but then I've been known to be wrong occasionally.

For the record, I thought it was quite clear...
Quote:

If I ask, [CENSORED]... and on a public forum... what does that imply or insinuate?


The detractors of Aikido are essentially insinuating the same thing... I beat a few aikidoka (may as well be "wife"?), therefore Aikido is ineffective. And thus insinuating because Aikido is ineffective... to which I have countered that fallacious line of argument, thru various qualifiers.

But at least there is some redemption for Dereck...(emphasis mine):
Quote:

Quote:

As an example, TKD has seen its fair share of bashing and to be honest most warrant it however this does not mean the art is ineffective. I've seen first hand what good quality TKD and its effectiveness. With that said I'm sure that Aikido may suffers from the same problems; as I'm sure other martial arts do.


Exactly Dereck and that is the only point I have been trying to make.


Um... not when you say this:
Quote:

then couldn't we assume that the art is lacking in effectiveness overall?


... which is precisely the same fallacious argument fileboy is making - for the reasons I have already explained.

Quote:

[Fileboy2002]So everyone else I trained with over the years, from taekwondo practitioners to judoka to karateka, got the idea, but the aikidoka didn't? How strange!


Not sure what point you're trying to make here.... I'm sure there is some level of intelligence there, so can I assume you are just here to troll? Or would that be a gross generalization based on your past and present behaviour on various Aikido threads?

BTW Brian, that I am in Australia is purely circumstantial and I don't see how that is either "convenient" or "peculiar" that I have not met anyone here... as if that is the key entry requirement into the VTG "club" here? Not that I would be interested in being party to such dubious qualifications. If by that comment you are insinuating that I am a coward, then why not say it? No need to hide behind the keyboard facade of cowardice - since it is plainly obvious that established VTG club members are entitled to insult, insinuate and bully others into submission. As I said, spring for my air ticket, or bring yourself here.

OR, you can simply rest assured in your gross generalizations and broad assumption that aikido is ineffective, based on whatever limited personal and anecdotal experience you may have, because YOU are right and all other opinions to the contrary must therefore be wrong... and therefore deserving of censorship if you can't "win".

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#399496 - 08/18/08 09:23 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Since we are still talking about aikido's effectiveness and eyrie and wrist have both said that good aikido is hard to find then couldn't we assume that the art is lacking in effectiveness overall? No different than any other ma imo.




Brian, first of all, I'm not the instigator of this animas, and your statement above is the first "reasonable" approach to the question so far in this discussion. I disagree that the art is lacking, but certainly some of the practitioners are... which is exactly what Eyrie has repeatedly said.

Martial arts to me are combat arts... not dojo arts, not "sports", and certainly not what I see practiced in 90 percent of the dojos out there. "Real" Aikido is like "real" jujutsu... it's designed to dispatch the uke to the netherworld. It is, however, practiced with restraint so that you stay healthy enough to practice.

To people who don't practice "with intent", they'll never understand what martial arts really are. If they understand, then they will practice a different way, and it will show in how they perform and in the strength of their technique. It has nothing to do with the inability of the art to do what it was designed to do, it is the fault of the practitioners.

This coming labor day marks 46 years of practice for me. I started out when martial arts were still practiced "as taught in Japan and Okinawa", and it wasn't "all padded up" or "touchy-feely"... we knocked the crap out of each other, and when you got thrown, it was "with force". It was taught as fighting, not as a pastime, or "way to get fit"... we were in shape from doing hours of exercises in order to survive the techniques. "Fighting full contact" took days to heal up, and black belts meant something about your actual technical knowledge of what you were doing. It didn't mean you had learned the 57 things on their list...

I spent years "going where the information was"... searching out master level instructors so I got the best information out there... and you're right that "not everybody has the same quality of instruction" in their arts... but that still doesn't make the art remiss... only the practitioners.

A lot of Aikido was designed to allow a swordsman to escape from the center of a circle of swordsmen, and to defend himself against the weapons both with the sword and empty handed. It wasn't designed to "score points" or "beat" someone, it was designed to kill or injure them... break their necks, their arms, throw them into another swordsman... all kinds of options that are seldom practiced in general today. O'Sensei took a lot of that out of the "dojo training" in an effort to spread the art and to adapt it to his personal religious philosophy... but the power of Aikido is in the practitioner if it is to be manifested at all. His discoveries of technique and ki projection were astounding, and few if any have reached the level that he mastered himself... just as few Goju practitioners have mastered Higonna Sensei's level of understanding. Does that make Goju a weak art?.. of course not... the proof is in the players. If all they do is "looks like" (insert art here) then it will be weak. If it's practiced at the level of the master instructors, it will remain strong.

Matt made plenty of smarta$$ comments about "Aikido people using swords", etc. which only shows his ignorance of the art. Yes, we do use swords... it's based on swordfighting... we use bokken's in dojo practice, just like we use wooden tantos for knife techniques. When the skill level increases to a certain point, we change to live blades. We also use jo as a training tool, and to help us in understanding the actual application of energy through the body mechanics of Aikido technique.

Again, this argument reminds me of the argument between teenage boys about whether a match between Mighty Mouse or Superman would be won by Superman "because he's a real guy". (From the movie "Stand by me"). Karate, Judo, Kempo, BJJ, and all the other arts are all designed differently to do different things. Karate is a hitting art... Judo is a throwing art and grappling art... Kempo is a combination art of those things... Aikido is an "energy art", and all those things are in it... whether or not they're practiced by the Aikidoka that have supposedly "collapsed" when tested.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399497 - 08/18/08 09:56 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
eyrie,

Meh, I won't bother with you. You know well what you did with malicious intent. No need to backtrack now. You've shown your true colors, once again.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399498 - 08/18/08 10:14 PM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Brian, first of all, I'm not the instigator of this animas, and your statement above is the first "reasonable" approach to the question so far in this discussion. I disagree that the art is lacking, but certainly some of the practitioners are... which is exactly what Eyrie has repeatedly said.





No he has not,neither have you.

Quote:

Martial arts to me are combat arts... not dojo arts, not "sports", and certainly not what I see practiced in 90 percent of the dojos out there. "Real" Aikido is like "real" jujutsu... it's designed to dispatch the uke to the netherworld. It is, however, practiced with restraint so that you stay healthy enough to practice




We see ma in the same light then. So, is it "some" or is it 90%?

Ofcourse everyone practices with safety in mind, I hope. We'd all be in a leg brace like me if we didn't,lol.

Quote:

To people who don't practice "with intent", they'll never understand what martial arts really are. If they understand, then they will practice a different way, and it will show in how they perform and in the strength of their technique. It has nothing to do with the inability of the art to do what it was designed to do, it is the fault of the practitioners.





I understand that completely,but if 90% of the practitioners are at fault then how is the art effective anymore? How is it good if you are the only one good at it? (exaggeration)

Quote:

This coming labor day marks 46 years of practice for me. I started out when martial arts were still practiced "as taught in Japan and Okinawa", and it wasn't "all padded up" or "touchy-feely"... we knocked the crap out of each other, and when you got thrown, it was "with force". It was taught as fighting, not as a pastime, or "way to get fit"... we were in shape from doing hours of exercises in order to survive the techniques. "Fighting full contact" took days to heal up, and black belts meant something about your actual technical knowledge of what you were doing. It didn't mean you had learned the 57 things on their list...




Do you ever tire of telling everyone how old you are, how much experience you have and all the bravado posturing? Is it an old person thing? The whole, "when I was your age we didn't wear pads". LOL! You act like you are the only person who has ever trained hard. I had the crap knocked out of me on a regular basis, but I don't need to say "I've been at this for 17yrs!! Yeah, and I'm HARD FRIGGIN' CORE HOMESKILLET, BELIEVE THAT!!!"

Quote:

I spent years "going where the information was"... searching out master level instructors so I got the best information out there... and you're right that "not everybody has the same quality of instruction" in their arts... but that still doesn't make the art remiss... only the practitioners




Yep, apparently 90% of them.

Quote:

A lot of Aikido was designed to allow a swordsman to escape from the center of a circle of swordsmen, and to defend himself against the weapons both with the sword and empty handed. It wasn't designed to "score points" or "beat" someone, it was designed to kill or injure them... break their necks, their arms, throw them into another swordsman... all kinds of options that are seldom practiced in general today. O'Sensei took a lot of that out of the "dojo training" in an effort to spread the art and to adapt it to his personal religious philosophy... but the power of Aikido is in the practitioner if it is to be manifested at all. His discoveries of technique and ki projection were astounding, and few if any have reached the level that he mastered himself...




You lost me on the ki thing. Swords again?? Ok, I'll take your word for it. I hereby proclaim that aikido is effective against swords as long as you have 46yrs of experience and a good ki projection, got it!!



Quote:

just as few Goju practitioners have mastered Higonna Sensei's level of understanding. Does that make Goju a weak art?..




No, only about 30% ineffective imo.


Quote:

Again, this argument reminds me of the argument between teenage boys about whether a match between Mighty Mouse or Superman would be won by Superman "because he's a real guy". (From the movie "Stand by me").




Plus Superman is much bigger!! Mightymouse is pretty fast though, it's a tossup.

Quote:

Karate, Judo, Kempo, BJJ, and all the other arts are all designed differently to do different things. Karate is a hitting art... Judo is a throwing art and grappling art... Kempo is a combination art of those things... Aikido is an "energy art", and all those things are in it... whether or not they're practiced by the Aikidoka that have supposedly "collapsed" when tested.





Does only 10% of aikidoka believe aikido is an energy art?



Edited by BrianS (08/18/08 10:16 PM)
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#399499 - 08/18/08 10:17 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
LMAOMTOAOA @ your desperate attempt to stick up for one of your homeskillets...

If I ever do get to the US of A, AR won't be on my list of "to visit" places... it appears there's nothing worth seeing over there....

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#399500 - 08/18/08 10:19 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

LMAOMTOAOA @ your desperate attempt to stick up for one of your homeskillets...

If I ever do get to the US of A, AR won't be on my list of "to visit" places... it appears there's nothing worth seeing over there....




_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399501 - 08/18/08 10:44 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

No he has not,neither have you.


We have... you didn't get it.


Edited by eyrie (08/18/08 10:46 PM)

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#399502 - 08/18/08 10:49 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I disagree that the art is lacking, but certainly some of the practitioners are... which is exactly what Eyrie has repeatedly said.





You have said some, then Grady says 90%, then he says some...?

Remember, you think I'm uneducated and slow. Ya'll have ta talky slow far mes ta understands ya caus im so dum!!
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#399503 - 08/18/08 11:03 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Um... no... 90% is YOUR spin on it. Point out where Grady says 90% of anything... and in its entire context if you please.

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#399504 - 08/18/08 11:20 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Martial arts to me are combat arts... not dojo arts, not "sports", and certainly not what I see practiced in 90 percent of the dojos out there. "Real" Aikido is like "real" jujutsu... it's designed to dispatch the uke to the netherworld. It is, however, practiced with restraint so that you stay healthy enough to practice.





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#399505 - 08/18/08 11:34 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Martial arts to me are combat arts... not dojo arts, not "sports", and certainly not what I see practiced in 90 percent of the dojos out there.




I didn't say "90% of the Aikido dojos"... 90% of dojos (in general). Aikido dojos are a small part of that. If Aikido is remiss as a "contest art", it's by design.

Apparently the "I'll do my part" was B-S, as usual. Clearly none of you guys can have a civil conversation without the personal sniping and insults.
Quote:

Also, I hope we can keep this debate open without anymore insults or personal attacks. I'll do my part.



Yeah, right...

Add a black belt in lying to your resume' of "martial skills"... or is it just a short memory span?

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399506 - 08/18/08 11:47 PM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I didn't say "90% of the Aikido dojos"... 90% of dojos (in general). Aikido dojos are a small part of that. If Aikido is remiss as a "contest art", it's by design.





That was about as clear as mud. You didn't leave out aikido dojo's before. BTW, don't you hate it when I speak generally? Yet you do it and it's ok? WTH??

Quote:

Apparently the "I'll do my part" was B-S, as usual. Clearly none of you guys can have a civil conversation without the personal sniping and insults.





Where were my personal insults at smiley? Seriously? What did I say that wasn't true? Maybe it was too true for you,but true none the less,but it wasn't personal.
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#399507 - 08/19/08 12:26 AM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Do you ever tire of telling everyone how old you are, how much experience you have and all the bravado posturing? Is it an old person thing? The whole, "when I was your age we didn't wear pads". LOL! You act like you are the only person who has ever trained hard. I had the crap knocked out of me on a regular basis, but I don't need to say "I've been at this for 17yrs!! Yeah, and I'm HARD FRIGGIN' CORE HOMESKILLET, BELIEVE THAT!!! "




Really? I'm scared to death...

Quote:

Maybe it was too true for you,but true none the less,but it wasn't personal.




That's it... accuse me of exactly what you're doing... you're big, bad, HOMESKILLIT... you sound more like curly fries... don't forget to tell everybody how old you are...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399508 - 08/19/08 12:48 AM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Grady,

You said
Quote:

Apparently the "I'll do my part" was B-S, as usual. Clearly none of you guys can have a civil conversation without the personal sniping and insults.





Still, where were the insults? You don't like what I say and you don't agree with me,so ou tske things personal, that's the problem here.

Quote:

Really? I'm scared to death...




It wasn't meant to scare you or anyone else, WTH???. It just proves that all the posturing on the internet is foolish. That was my point. There is no need to list your years of training and how tough you are in every other post you make.

Quote:

That's it... accuse me of exactly what you're doing... you're big, bad, HOMESKILLIT... you sound more like curly fries... don't forget to tell everybody how old you are




You lost me again, I have no idea what curly fries sound like.
I'm not doing the posturing here, you do it on a regular basis. Look back at any thred where you have more than five posts and I'll bet you state how long ou have trained and how rigorous your training has been. You also make claims of beating high ranking matial artists, people stopping their training because you are hitting the heavy bag wih so much force, etc..it's just silly isn't it?

Are you going to return to the thread now?

What % of aikido dojo's d you believe to be showing real aikido that is combat effective since you have ruled out what you said earlier.

Were you talking about every other art? Which arts were you referring to?


Edited by BrianS (08/19/08 12:50 AM)
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#399509 - 08/19/08 03:01 AM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Are you going to return to the thread now?


What's the point? Almost every post after fileboy's interjection is not on topic anyway. Now it seems it's degenerated to downright nitpicking, because *some* people can't understand the parameters of the argument, or refute the alternative argument.

Personally, I think this thread should be locked or deleted. Those who say that aikido is ineffective, can feel free to do so. After all, they seem to have firmly made up their mind, and simply will not accept any argument EVEN if it generally agrees with their opinion.

Either they are, or pretending to be, intellectually incapable, or just plain unreasonable, or they're just trolling for a reaction.... and given the past behaviour of some members here... I'm not in the least bit surprised at any or all of the above possibilities.


Edited by eyrie (08/19/08 03:15 AM)

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#399510 - 08/19/08 06:34 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Either they are, or pretending to be, intellectually incapable, or just plain unreasonable, or they're just trolling for a reaction....




I was actually giving Brian an opportunity to discuss the issue, and, as usual, it degenerated into sniping and misrepresentation, so I have to agree. No one's changing their minds... least of all anyone with actual Aikido experience to any depth... so as you say, the naysayers should just feel free to think Aikido ineffective. It would be great to see their faces when they find out otherwise.

I just took off a couple of months from the boards for exactly the reasons shown in this thread. It has nothing to do with reasonable argument or debate, just personal sniping and a few jerkoffs who simply don't like me. In less than two weeks, I've been called objectionable names, and simply railed against by arguing things not even involved in the discussion... so I think I'll go back into retirement here. There are dozens of other places where I don't get this crap, and people actually discuss the topics.

non illigitum carborundum

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#399511 - 08/19/08 07:01 AM Re: College aikido [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet


Edited by eyrie (08/19/08 07:01 AM)

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#399512 - 08/19/08 08:15 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
ok, so you guys are making me work and having to look up the darn latin.

neca eos omnes, deus suos agnoscet
"Kill'em all, and let God sort'em out"

non illigitum carborundum
"don't let the [censored] grind you down".
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#399513 - 08/19/08 09:20 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Bye again Grady. Take your toys and go home. Won't miss ya bud!

Still don't see where I or anyone else said all aikido was ineffective.

We can only base our opinions on our own experiences,but that's not good enough for you guys. You want us to believe in aikido as much as you do without any basis for believing it. I would like to think that some aikido is effective. I would like to believe Steven Segal was as good as his movies too,but Gene Lebell and some stuntman proved that wrong didn't they,lol.

I'm sure there are good aikidoka out there with good training methods, I just haven't witnessed any and you guys are pi$$ed at me for it. Gotta love it!!


Edited by BrianS (08/19/08 09:26 AM)
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#399514 - 08/19/08 09:49 AM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Lebell took out Segal? Odd I never heard of this. Also, never cared for Segal anyway.. If there is a vid would love to see it.
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#399515 - 08/19/08 09:59 AM Re: College aikido [Re: JasonM]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I'll try and find the information.

Basically Lebell and Segal were yapping at eachother, Lebell ended up choking him out. Then he did it again after Segal got up and mouthed some more. Duh>>>...

Did you know that Gene Lebell also ran around with Bruce Lee on his shoulders after Bruce ran his mouth on the set of "Green Hornet"? LOL!!
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#399516 - 08/19/08 10:49 AM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
wow, didn't know that. I would love to see or read about Lebell choking out Segal. Can't stand the guy anyway....
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#399517 - 08/19/08 10:35 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Still don't see where I or anyone else said all aikido was ineffective.


I have already pointed out fileboy's post #16003988 in this thread. How about yur post #16009339 in the Aikido vs MMA thread? Implying or insinuating is as good as saying it, as I quite easily demonstrated with the [CENSORED!!!!] comment, despite the fact that it was without malice or ill-intent, and simply to illustrate the implications of making an insinuation.

Quote:

We can only base our opinions on our own experiences,but that's not good enough for you guys.


Certainly, no one is begrudging your opinion, or that it's not good enough. But what makes your opinion more valid than mine or Grady's? Are our experiences not good enough for you either? Or because our respective experiences do not agree with yours?


Edited by eyrie (08/19/08 10:36 PM)

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#399518 - 08/19/08 10:49 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I have already pointed out fileboy's post #16003988 in this thread. How about yur post #16009339 in the Aikido vs MMA thread? Implying or insinuating is as good as saying it, as I quite easily demonstrated with the [CENSORED!!!!] comment, despite the fact that it was without malice or ill-intent, and simply to illustrate the implications of making an insinuation.




If implications or insinuations are just as good then you have alot of people to apologize too on here double standard dude.

Quote:

Certainly, no one is begrudging your opinion, or that it's not good enough. But what makes your opinion more valid than mine or Grady's?




My opinion will always be more valid than yours or Grady's, that's just the way it is. As if you never "begrudged" my opinion. Have you read your posts before submitting them dd?

Quote:

Are our experiences not good enough for you either? Or because our respective experiences do not agree with yours?




So, what percent of an art has to be effective for an art as a whole to be effectve? 90? 50?

Nope, only 10 for you guys and it's golden!! Ready to take on mma and the marine corps!!
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#399519 - 08/19/08 11:06 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

My opinion will always be more valid than yours or Grady's, that's just the way it is.


I see... well I see no point in arguing with you then... coz ur always right... and as I suspected just being deliberately argumentative.

Quote:

So, what percent of an art has to be effective for an art as a whole to be effectve? 90? 50?


Just one person (not 1%) would be enough to question the entire premise of your theory. But since you're always right, the point is moot.

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#399520 - 08/19/08 11:13 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Oh come on, that was purposefully sarcastic! It was just a rediculous answer to a silly question EYRIE.

Quote:

Just one person (not 1%) would be enough to question the entire premise of your theory. But since you're always right, the point is moot.





The point has been moot for days. I can't argue with a wall. I need fenikushopoopoo or whatever to headbutt the wall 47 times and crack it. He did aikido for about 10minutes so I'm sure he'll be awesome!!!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399521 - 08/19/08 11:39 PM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Opinionated AND sarcastic to the point of ridiculousness... and yet YOU continue to persist in making onanistic remarks.

I was going to make some snide comment about how this is probably a reflection of your personal life and relationships... but what's the point? You won't get it either. All you're concerned with is oneupmanship... so feel free to WIN this argument ANYTIME.


Edited by eyrie (08/19/08 11:39 PM)

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#399522 - 08/19/08 11:49 PM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Brian takes GOLD!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#399523 - 08/20/08 12:37 AM Re: College aikido [Re: BrianS]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Gentlemen,
As a relatively novice part time martial artist I enjoy the discussions on this board and feel that I gain wisdom and insight from many of you with countless more hours of training and devotion to martials than I have. However, this recent flaming, grandstanding, insulting one another and having your arguments in front of everybody is getting to me. Forgive me for sounding like a traditionalist but doesn't treating one another with honor and respect usually come with the territory of practicing martial arts as well?

Just a thought

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#399524 - 08/20/08 01:03 AM Re: College aikido [Re: tomh777]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Honor are respect are plenty important, but they should never be used to justify compromising even more important values: honesty and truth.

Too often, "respect" in the martial arts takes the form of lying--i.e. "all arts are equally good" or "it's the artist, not the art." Every other area of human activity (with the possible exception of religion) is considered fair game for critical analysis. Disagreements--even contentious ones, are understood as part of the search for truth. However, in the martial arts, it seems more important to keep the peice than seek the truth.

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#399525 - 08/20/08 02:17 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Wow... just wow...

Never mind "respect" or "honesty" - it's the unequivocal lack of probity or moral rectitude demonstrated by insinuating that if someone's perception of the "truth" is different from yours, they're lying???

And what makes YOUR VERSION of the truth THE TRUTH?? Ironic that you should mention "critical analysis" when you don't subject your own arguments to the same.

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#399526 - 08/20/08 02:53 AM Re: College aikido [Re: eyrie]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Christ, eyrie, don't you ever sleep?

Look, using $20 words like "probity" and "rectitude" does not make you honest. The fact remains that I, as well as other posters, have offered you evidence to support our views about aikido on this and countless other threads many, many times. Your reaction is always the same: rejection. You reject any and all evidence as insufficient, unscientific, unrepresentative, biased, dishonest, uninformed etc, etc.

You remind me of Michael Behe, an "intelligent-design" proponent. In a recent court case, Behe persisted in saying the theory of evolution could not account for the bacterial flagellal motor, despite confronted with dozens of peer-reviewed studies that did just that! His reason: he found the 50+ studies cited "insufficient."

Eyrie, this is why I describe your faith in aikido as religious. No amouny of evidence of any kind, from any source, would ever shake your faith.

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#399527 - 08/20/08 03:06 AM Re: College aikido [Re: fileboy2002]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
And your equal rejection of the counter-arguments as invalid, AND insinuating that anyone who doesn't agree with YOUR point of view is a LIAR, makes you a better, more honest, person???

Where did I suggest your ANECDOCTAL evidence was dishonest??? Please... anecdotal evidence is NOT scientific evidence, show me where I asked for "scientific evidence"... I only asked you to substantiate your "claim".

In fact, which part of this did you not comprehend? I've highlighted the pertinent bits.
Quote:

What is remarkable is despite having the logic flaw pointed out, no matter how you vaguely attempt to reword it, you are still saying the same thing - Aikido is ineffective, rather than the more accurate statement that the aikidoka you supposedly "trained" with were ineffective.

In fact, I would be more willing to accept that statement as a prima facie argument than what you are blatantly generalizing.




Now who's being dishonest? You can't even accept the fact I have conceded part of the argument you put forth, and instead persist in twisting my words.

For the record, I'm not rejecting "any or all evidence"... don't put words in my mouth. I'm simply asking you to substantiate your argument LOGICALLY - which is not an unreasonable request given this medium.

Obviously YOU don't understand THAT point either.


Edited by eyrie (08/20/08 03:08 AM)

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