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#398877 - 07/25/08 10:00 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: eyrie]
TexasAikido Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Houston
Eyrie... Are you going against Zombie Zero's request at the top of the forums?

Of course, I never directly trained with O'Sensei. He passed away in 1969 and I began my study under Suenaka Sensei in 1971. Your last quote is a paraphrase of a principle Suenaka Sensei taught me many years ago, which in turn is based upon principals taught to him by O'Sensei. It's a simple description of how I teach my class. For reference see Suenakas "Complete Aikido" pgs 103 through 104. Also see the attached link. It's been around for years, in print and on the web in various formats, and also expresses my "Aikido Philosophy"

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC04/Dobson.htm

In my 37 years of study, I have been very successful in using "verbal Aikido" to avoid most confrontaions. I do confess that being 6'3 and 300 lbs probably helped. I have also been fortunate enough through those years and having worked as a bouncer and corrections officer to defend myself and others when fighting was necessary. I still contend that my style is far from what you called "new-age "aiki-is-lovey-dovey", and much closer to what the Founder intended.

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#398878 - 07/25/08 11:27 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: TexasAikido]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
No offense meant regarding the style, but most practitioners I've seen usually have an excuse or another not to compete in an MMA setting.

I used to think Aikido was an art developed to kick the cr@p out of untrained people, but Eyrie, through his 'verbal aikido' proved me wrong.

You know what I believe?

A little theory, I nicknamed 'natural evolution'. What happens when you put aikido inside the cage? It will suck at first, then 10,000+ techniques will be reduced to around 10-15 (maybe less), the art will focus more on atemi BASED on boxing instead of the overhead chop cr@p which is usually taught, and that after a while most likely, the techniques which were bred under these conditions resembles judo, while the locks resembles those done in BJJ.

It's a natural evolution of any art that enters the MMA setting. For example, there's a HUGE difference between goju-ryu karate and Daido juku. Their resemblence? The name 'karate', other than that. Not much.

Anyways, I'm going to side with Kogas here. Why doesn't aikido enter the MMA setting? Afraid of a little 'functional' 'natural evolution' of the art you hold dear?

And don't come with the same excuse where techniques are limited by rules. Methinks, there hasn't been any well-conditioned aikido-ka that could go into the cage and prove that their technique is functional under 'safer fighting simulations'.

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#398879 - 07/25/08 11:35 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Taison]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
How long does it take to become effective in aikido?



Edited by harlan (07/25/08 11:39 AM)

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#398880 - 07/25/08 11:50 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Taison]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Good point Taison. It also goes to what eyrie is trying to convey: the techniques are there to lead you towards a deeper understanding, you could say of movement and timing--I think these are the stregths of Aikido. The question is, does the current method by which Aikido is generally trained promote this understanding, or does it engender in the student a desire for the replication of 10,000 techniques?


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#398881 - 07/25/08 12:17 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Ames]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
TexasAikido,
Here's a little example of 'natural evolution' that occured due to individual progression;

Judo has around 64 official throws.

A black belt judo-ka only drills around 10 or so throws that he feels most comfortable with and actually shows the results he wants. Why is this? Why not practice all the 64 throws? Randori on a larger scale.

What would happen if Aikido did the same thing and filtered out the 10,000 techniques and ended up with 7? Sure, you could argue Tomiki aikido does sparring as well, but do they do it as intense and fixated as judo-ka do it? Do they have national and international tournaments? Judo's randori is about winning and using the best and most effective technique in order to win. Aikido's sparring is testing what works under pressure, but not about winning.

'Natural evolution' is a natural change which will continue on always. It changed gongfu into okinawan karate, okinawan karate into kyokushin, and kyokushin into daido juku.

The only limiting factor is how much are you willing to embrace the change?

You said in order for aikido to function properly under MMA settings, you'll need to create distraction using atemi, well, that's what judo-ka are doing inside the cage to get their throws off. It's a natural evolution. Figures, doesn't it?


Chris,
My MA understanding is like a cup water compared to Eyrie's vast ocean. There's technique and principals. I'm striving for technique but to do that I need to understand the principals but by the time I understand the principals, the techniques will come naturally. What I think Eyrie is trying to say is that a lot of aikido-ka are trying to force this process and just skip principals and go for the techniques, thus resulting in 'cheap replicas'.


Harlan,
How long? Don't know but if I remember right, I asked a Shihan that in Bangkok, and he said around 20 years. Sigh~

~Donnie
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#398882 - 07/25/08 02:27 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Taison]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

? Do they have national and international tournaments?
~Donnie




Yes and Yes.

The below link details the USA NAtional Championships (annual tourney) and the International Tomiki Championships (held every few years I think)

http://www.tomiki.org/events.html (USA)

http://www.shodokanaikido.co.uk/gyoji.html

There are also the European Tournaments such as the Koshiyama Cup, held recently in Switzerland.

That I know of, (apart from the aforementioned USA) Britian, Japan, Brazil and, as of hopefully next year, Ireland, have their own national tournaments.

There are tons of videos from Competitions, both national and international, on youtube. This of course relates to Shodokan/Tomiki Aikido. I have never heard of another Aikido style holding competitions.


So there are Aikidoka who do competitions on a regular basis. As I recall, I heard a tale of a Shodokan Aikido/Judo tournament in the UK once. Will try and dig some info up if I can.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#398883 - 07/25/08 07:23 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: TexasAikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Of course, I never directly trained with O'Sensei. He passed away in 1969 and I began my study under Suenaka Sensei in 1971. Your last quote is a paraphrase of a principle Suenaka Sensei taught me many years ago, which in turn is based upon principals taught to him by O'Sensei. It's a simple description of how I teach my class. For reference see Suenakas "Complete Aikido" pgs 103 through 104. Also see the attached link. It's been around for years, in print and on the web in various formats, and also expresses my "Aikido Philosophy"

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC04/Dobson.htm



I wasn't asking about your teacher or what he taught or how you teach. I asked a simple question... please provide a citation where Ueshiba is quoted as saying what you attributed to him by this comment.
Quote:

We are directed by O'Sensei himself to Avoid all conflict if possible, and if not possible, to hurt rather than maime, maime rather than kill, and kill rather than be killed.




Quote:

In my 37 years of study, I have been very successful in using "verbal Aikido" to avoid most confrontaions. I do confess that being 6'3 and 300 lbs probably helped. I have also been fortunate enough through those years and having worked as a bouncer and corrections officer to defend myself and others when fighting was necessary. I still contend that my style is far from what you called "new-age "aiki-is-lovey-dovey", and much closer to what the Founder intended.


We're not talking about "verbal aikido"... although you are typical of most aikidoka when pressed... at deflecting, redirecting and avoiding the question. It still doesn't address the question John posed as to what specifically about the rules that make an aikidoka unwilling or unable to compete in an MMA setting.

As far as I'm concerned, the appeal to the authority of "the overriding philosophy of peace and harmony" or being limited by technical responses is a poor excuse for not wanting to participate in an MMA competition.


Edited by eyrie (07/25/08 07:40 PM)

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#398884 - 07/25/08 11:14 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: eyrie]
TexasAikido Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Houston
I can only answer this question from my own perspective. If I gave you or anyone else here the impression that I was quoting Ueshiba directly and not interpreting his teachings to mean what I said above, I apologize. But, I did give you a citation and explanation of where I derived my interpretation and the condensation of a broad philosophy into the single sentence that you quoted.

As far as dodging the question about rules keeping an Aikidoka from competing in an mma match, I gave you the answer to that above also. Again, from my perspective, I wouldn't take Aikido, a self defense oriented art into an mma competiton where the rules keep me from doing whatever is necessary to defend myself. MMA rules prohibit to many counters that an Aikidoka might need to use to defeat the attack of an mma proponent. It's that simple. This same thought was put out there by several other people in this thread. I don't believe that Aikido can be succesful in an mma environment, when the mma environment is 180 degrees opposite to what traditional Aikido teaches. I can't speak for the Tomiki guys because I haven't seen nor practised the style. Again my opinion only. As soon as you attempt to take traditional Aikido into a competition, your no longer doing "Aikido".


Edited by TexasAikido (07/25/08 11:18 PM)

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#398885 - 07/25/08 11:40 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: TexasAikido]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Quote:

We are directed by O'Sensei himself to Avoid all conflict if possible, and if not possible, to hurt rather than maime, maime rather than kill, and kill rather than be killed.



Are you attributing that to Ueshiba as a quote of sorts(?!?!). Funny thing is...for my 8 gup test (aka first gold belt) in tae kwon do chang moo kwan (over 20 years ago) we had to know the basic tenet of self defense which was, "Run rather than hurt, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill, kill rather than be killed." My point is I don't think Ueshiba should be singled out as "the" teacher of what really seems to be a somewhat universal principle of self defense.

That's all

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#398886 - 07/26/08 12:12 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: TexasAikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I can only answer this question from my own perspective. If I gave you or anyone else here the impression that I was quoting Ueshiba directly and not interpreting his teachings to mean what I said above, I apologize. But, I did give you a citation and explanation of where I derived my interpretation and the condensation of a broad philosophy into the single sentence that you quoted.


There's no need to be apologetic. I have many books, unfortunately Suenaka's book is not one of them, which is why I asked for a citation and clarification. I'm pretty sure I had not read anything that quoted Ueshiba as saying that. No harm done... as long as it's now clear that that is your interpretation of it.

Quote:

As far as dodging the question about rules keeping an Aikidoka from competing in an mma match, I gave you the answer to that above also. Again, from my perspective, I wouldn't take Aikido, a self defense oriented art into an mma competiton where the rules keep me from doing whatever is necessary to defend myself. MMA rules prohibit to many counters that an Aikidoka might need to use to defeat the attack of an mma proponent. It's that simple. This same thought was put out there by several other people in this thread. I don't believe that Aikido can be succesful in an mma environment, when the mma environment is 180 degrees opposite to what traditional Aikido teaches. I can't speak for the Tomiki guys because I haven't seen nor practised the style. Again my opinion only. As soon as you attempt to take traditional Aikido into a competition, your no longer doing "Aikido".


Yeah... no.. you're still referring to rules limiting potential technical responses which I don't agree with. An MMA competition is a contest of skill, not one in which you have to defend yourself from a rabid attacker in the sense of "self-defense". I think that, certainly, the basic principles and body skills used in Aikido can work in an MMA format... but I can't speak to the successfulness of its use in such format - which is a different issue.

And certainly has nothing to do with any perceived rules that might unnecessarily limit one's potentially available repertoire. Every technique has a counter, every counter a reversal. So why would aikido (or MMA) be any different?

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