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#398867 - 06/12/08 02:49 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Prizewriter]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
"The way Aikido is trained in its current format would not be suitable though against MMA".

Then one could say if that is true how effective is it in a real encounter...but that's another topic


My man Steven Seagal, wish that fat sucker would loose some wait for his movies! Those big old leather trench coats he has to wear don't fool me!!!

No offense Seagal Sensei
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#398868 - 06/12/08 07:59 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Just a short comment... not directed at anyone particularly...

The topic started out ok, then quickly degenerated into technicalities and techniques.

If you're considering using the movements/principles of Aikido in an MMA setting, then I would suggest the focus on "technique" is not going to get you anywhere.

Aikido is not about the technique, and certainly not about wrist manipulations - the technique is a "front" thru which the real stuff is hidden. Just as the wrist is a way to get to the real goal of aiki - kuzushi on contact. Technique is merely a distraction from the real essence of the art.

The principles of movement and anatomical juxtapositions are the same with any martial or pugilistic art as they are with Aikido. The human body only works and responds in so many ways.

The best thing I can say is that there is a group of people in Tokyo using similar principles in an MMA setting. The format is different and looks nothing like Aikido, but the principles are the same.

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#398869 - 06/13/08 06:00 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: eyrie]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Spot on Eyrie I agree in full. I was careful (I think) to say "movements" of Aikido, rather than "techniques" of Aikido. As has been said before, Aikido is a system of body movement as much as anything else.

I think that philisophy would be a constant regardless of setting e.g. dojo, MMA gym, everyday world.

When I said the way Aikido is currently trained would not be best suited to MMA, I meant that most Aikidoka don't use train to use Aikido against MMA. Although the principle is constant in Aikido, its better to have an idea what you are up against!

Good to hear from you again Eyrie!


Edited by Prizewriter (06/13/08 06:02 AM)
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#398870 - 06/15/08 08:33 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Prizewriter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It's a complex issue... best suited for what? There are rules (written and unwritten) in sportive engagements... and I would think certainly in MMA/Vale Tudo, as there would be in Shodokan shiai.

The only real guiding principle in Aikido is not to harm your training partner intentionally. Otherwise, there are no real "rules" in Aikido.... and you would have to take the bull on in his own field.

However, I think what you're really trying to get at is if you can take the "body skills" of Aikido and apply it MMA or any format.... and the answer is yes.

Note I said "body skills" and not technique. Technique is useless. Body skill is something else altogether. And if you're not training your body skill (read "gongfu") in Aikido, then you're wasting your time. The body skill is what makes the techniques work... not the other way round.

Don't get me wrong, you need both body skill and technique though.... which is why contests/competitions are pretty pointless... it's not about Aikido vs MMA or whateva, it's about pitting your bodyskill and technical know-how against another person's bodyskill and technical know-how. And as with everything, there is some element of luck involved.

However, if we're talking "no rules", and you don't have to protect the other person from themselves, then it's a completely different matter.

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#398871 - 07/23/08 04:20 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: eyrie]
TexasAikido Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Houston
Well said Eyrie. You hit the nail on the head. This type of thread really misses the crux of the matter. When you add competition into any "Martial Art", you turn the Art into a "Martial Sport". Martial Sports, whether mma, taekwondo, judo, Timiki Aikido etc are fine, if that is your passion. They can be effectively used for self defense. But, when you add rules to the equation, your now confining yourself to the limits defined by the rules of the your particular martial sport.

For me, the beauty of Aikido is the freedom that O'Sensei gave us in studying Aikido. Some will argue, but one of O'Sensei's greatest techniques he gave us is the concept of circular movement. Aikido incorporates circular movement into all of it's technique. The greater our understanding of circular movement, the greater our universe.

I get totally pumped when I watch a student gain understanding of how the devlopment of their personal ki through breathing techniques while learning to "focus without focusing", enables him or her to toss this 350 lb Texan across the dojo, after they evade my attack using that simple circular pivot, and counters with any of 10,000 or more techniques.

O'Sensei taught us to "train until we forget" and that "we are all in the race together". Let's not get caught up in the "what ifs". Let's enjoy our art for what it is.


Edited by TexasAikido (07/23/08 04:32 PM)

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#398872 - 07/23/08 05:51 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: TexasAikido]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Might you be putting a little more into the "rules" argument than is actually warranted?

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#398873 - 07/24/08 03:21 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
TexasAikido Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Houston
I'm not quit sure I follow your point exactly. Are not "rules" the exact reason you won't find an Aikidoka competing in an mma match?

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#398874 - 07/24/08 05:58 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: TexasAikido]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I'd argue that there are probably other reasons why aikidoka don't compete in MMA than merely the "rules".

But since we're on that topic, what is it specifically about the rules that makes an aikidoka unwilling or unable to compete?

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#398875 - 07/25/08 12:25 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
TexasAikido Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 16
Loc: Houston
I guess I would have to answer that by saying alot of it is the philosophy of Aikido. If I remember correctly, you stated that you have studied Aikido for several years yourself, and this will probably be repetitive to you. Of course Aikido itself is defined as "the way of harmony and peace" We are directed by O'Sensei himself to Avoid all conflict if possible, and if not possible, to hurt rather than maime, maime rather than kill, and kill rather than be killed. Competition defeats the purpose of an Aikidokas training. If an mma guy for instance shoots a single or double leg take down for instance, I can sprawl and attempt to force the attacker to the ground with pressure on the neck and shoulders, underhook and throw, spin behind etc. But, I can't evade the sprawl, atemi strike with whip fingers to the eyes, snap a push kick to the groin, fish hook a cheek etc, because those things are outside mma rules. Most of an Aikidokas locks and holds, to be applied properly without turning the hold into a wrestling match depend upon the distraction created by an atemi strike, a slap or push kick etc to set the throw up. Rules on the other hand stop an Aikidokas Takemusu. I look forward to your thoughts. FYI, I have family in both Carolinas. It's a great part of the country.


Edited by TexasAikido (07/25/08 12:30 AM)

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#398876 - 07/25/08 07:21 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: TexasAikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

"the way of harmony and peace"


It's a rather rudimentary understanding of the philosophy of the art... and really has nothing to do with rules of engagement in MMA competitions or of the unwillingness or inability to compete in such events.

In fact, I would say that's a heap of steaming hot bovine excrement, and nothing more than a typical deflection by most new-age "aiki-is-lovey-dovey" aikidoka who can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. IOW, pulling the "philosophy" cr@p is a really good excuse for feigned unwillingness to compete, in order to cover up the inability to do so.

Quote:

Most of an Aikidokas locks and holds, to be applied properly without turning the hold into a wrestling match depend upon the distraction created by an atemi strike, a slap or push kick etc to set the throw up.


All the peace and harmony you think you have will amount to naught if you can't fight or don't know how to fight. It doesn't matter whether it's an MMA competition or otherwise. If you can't emerge victorious from any engagement, perhaps without harming your opponent, then basically you stink. Distraction with atemi? Indeed...

Quote:

Avoid all conflict if possible, and if not possible, to hurt rather than maime, maime rather than kill, and kill rather than be killed.


AFAIK, Ueshiba never said this. Can you provide a cite please?

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