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#398987 - 08/13/08 09:14 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

FWIW, I have no emotional dog in this fight




Sure you don't.

Quote:

The following assertions were made, that:
A. Most aikidoka are generally ineffective
B. Aikido techniques are ineffective
C. Therefore Aikido is ineffective




Actually, that is not at all what I was saying. My assertions would be more like:

A. While Aikido footwork is very applicable, Aikido joint locks are difficult to get against resistance

B. Many Aikido people do not practice against resistance/realistic intent

C. Therefore Aikido will not do well in MMA

Quote:

To which I have already addressed this argument that the causative effect could be either the result of poor teaching standards or low student quality - and to which no one has made a counter-argument.




I am not disagreeing wih that. In fact, systemic lack-of-resistance training in Aikido causes low student quality. Not a fault of the art. But at the same time, if that's how it's commonly done, this means there is little practical difference to Aikido folk trying their hands against MMA folk. They will most likely lose. You are arguing semantics.

Quote:

Even if A is true, there is no proof that assertion B is true on its own merit. It is a logical fallacy to assert that B is true because A is true.




The logical fallacy is yours, because I am not making that argument. However, if the training is *systemically lacking something*, then B would be true in practical terms, by default.

Quote:

In any case, even if either A or B are equally true, it certainly does not imply that C is true. Cum hoc ergo propter hoc!




By strict definition, no. But in practical terms.........

Quote:

If you, Brian or John wish to address any of these arguments, feel free. Or if people wish to continue the childish behaviour, feel free too - just don't expect a direct response.




Don't worry - I'm quite used to not getting a direct response out of you.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#398988 - 08/13/08 09:33 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

A. While Aikido footwork is very applicable, Aikido joint locks are difficult to get against resistance

B. Many Aikido people do not practice against resistance/realistic intent

C. Therefore Aikido will not do well in MMA





How about dispensing with the sarcastic stabs and stick to the argument?

A. Neither footwork or joint-locks can be proven to be true or false. Sure footwork helps IF you can get out of the way (once again a skill and experience issue). Yet, mao de vaca (gokyo), jujigatame (juji), omoplata (ikkyo) - the staple jointlocks of BJJ - can work against resistance?

B. Sweeping generalization. Proof?

C. Prove cause/effect between A, B and C?

Quote:

I am not disagreeing wih that. In fact, systemic lack-of-resistance training in Aikido causes low student quality. Not a fault of the art. But at the same time, if that's how it's commonly done, this means there is little practical difference to Aikido folk trying their hands against MMA folk. They will most likely lose. You are arguing semantics.


Proof? Again you're making an non-causative assertion:
A. No resistance training in Aikido - unproven
B. Therefore Aikido is likely to lose - speculation

Quote:

The logical fallacy is yours, because I am not making that argument. However, if the training is *systemically lacking something*, then B would be true in practical terms, by default.


Causative proof? A lacks B. Therefore C is true? Where's the causal relation between A, B & C?

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#398989 - 08/13/08 10:35 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
John, let me give you a bit of a history lesson.

Ueshiba Sensei (O'Sensei) "discovered" Aikido from his martial arts studies using the jujutsu techniques and swordfighting skills of his training. Professor Kano developed Judo as a sport by blending numerous styles of jujutsu together and taking out many of the "damaging" techniques of those styles. Mitsugo Maeda developed Brazilian Jujitsu from Kodokan Judo and Sumo, which were the only two arts he trained in. He never actually trained in jujutsu as an art, other than what was included in Judo.

Tohei Sensei, was chief instructor at the Aikikai while O'Sensei was there and training. After many years together, Tohei broke away from the Aikikai to concentrate on the "internal" elements of Aikido, and began the practice of "Shin Shin Toitsu" Aikido. No one had better technique at the Aikikai than Tohei.

While teaching and conducting demonstrations, O'Sensei used Sogunuma Sensei as his uke (partner) to demonstrate techniques. Sogunuma trained my training partner.

When Tohei established his Aikido dojo, he took in a number of "deshis" (live in students), one of whom was Toyoda Sensei, who eventually became my teacher and good friend, who established the Aikido Association of America.

Now, that being said... all of my Aikido knowledge is 4th generation,(from both directions) which is about as close as anyone can get now to the founder since Ueshiba Kisshimaru is now dead.

When I began studying Aikido, I had already studied martial arts for 22 years... so I had some basis of comparison. I already had black belts in karate, judo, and jujutsu, and teaching licenses in jujutsu... so I had a frame of reference to judge the veracity of techniques against an "existing standard". It wasn't just "do this and it works like this"... I already had 22 years of hard core training "to resist" the techniques of Aikido.

If I'm an "outspoken ally" of Eyrie, it has a basis of understanding exactly what he's talking about and only needing to disagree with him when he's wrong. I don't need to go find a book to find an opinion, I had 3rd generation instruction, and my 4th generation understanding of Aikido guides me.

I learned early on in my martial arts training to seek out the best teachers, because at the time, there weren't too many martial arts schools out there. I've travelled for hours to train for an hour, and then drive back just to train with somebody that "knew something". I slept on dojo floors, people's couches, and in the seat of the car "seeking information".

While a lot of these internet wizards might talk a good game, I'm a student of masters... and not those that just organized a group and gave themselves a title, but legitimate, skilled, martial arts experts. On labor day, I'll be starting my 46th year of training, bad hips, torn rotator cuffs, twice broken ankle and all.

These guys on the FA boards all talk about respect, and then show less than any newbie in any MA school I've ever trained in. They're "google fu" experts, and while they can craft an argument, they don't know $hit most of the time, and especially when talking Aikido.

When I was training with Toyoda, we did what Sensei called "the old Aikido", which was what Tohei had taught him as the original techniques he and O'Sensei worked out. When I say "the technique is designed to break arms or necks", it's because that's exactly what it was designed to do. Like Professor Kano, he took those aspects out of the training to protect the players... but the technique still works the same way, and if you "step through" (in a lot of cases) you get a whole different result than if you practice the "dojo brand" of it's implementation. Just like you can throw, lock, and pin somebody and cause injury using Judo, Aikido will do it in a heartbeat... if you ignore the philosophical and spiritual aspects of the training. Most of these "style wars" are nothing but a pi$$ing contest anyway, and the ones who expose themselves are those "google fu" experts. Unfortunately, many of the readers don't have any (or limited) experience either in what's being argued, so they can read all the posts and never know which one's the idiot. Usually, it's the ones with "pals"... and what they actually "know" is how to gang up, start the name calling, and start challenging the veracity of what's said by somebody who actually has experience at what's being discussed... and just because you've done six months of Aikido at Joe Blow's dojo doesn't make you an "authority". I've taken nidan level players (2nd degree black belt) and taught them more in one class than they learned in several years of practice in many cases. It's an art of nuances and body mechanics. When you do it wrong, it's weak... when you do it right, it's explosive.

I don't argue with Eyrie, because most of the time, what he says is right... and if I disagree, more than likely, it's more esoteric than considering what he said as being "wrong"...(you say tomato, I say to-mah-to) type of thing...

I just spent several months off the board and in the "lurking mode", and this thread has shown me that's probably what I should do again. Clearly, I'm not going to teach anybody anything on a discussion board, and it's completely fruitless to argue with idiots who have to go look up information from people I've trained with and been out to dinner with. If they aren't dead, I'll simply call them on the phone and ask them if I need information.



p.s. to MattJ...
John Stevens never trained with Ueshiba. He was Shirata Rinjiro's student, who did. His only other teacher (his words) was Hanzawa Yoshimi who was the CI at Sendai University where he started Aikido in 1973. He did, however, train with a lot of high level Aikidoka from the Aikikai during his studies. Just so you know. WT
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#398990 - 08/14/08 06:32 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: wristtwister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Grady,

No NEED for a history lesson. I just made a general point. People can take it however they so choose.

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#398991 - 08/14/08 07:17 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

I just made a general point.


Hardly... it was a pointed remark aimed at discrediting Grady, because you do not accept my arguments. And since Grady's arguments are along the same lines as mine, therefore Grady is, guilty by association, and therefore also wrong. How else did you think the average rational person was going to take it?

Need I remind people that the thread topic is
Quote:

a technical thread concerning using the movements/principles of Aikido in an MMA setting


?

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#398992 - 08/14/08 07:54 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Eyrie -

Dispense with the sarcastic jabs? You first. You get what you give, bro.

I am once again disavowing your attempts to turn my statements into some kind of scientific/statistical/strawman analysis, which I have repeatedly denied was my intention. I don't understand why you keep trying to make me out to be saying something that I'm not. I offered my interpretation for clarity, since the conclusions that YOU were saying I made were completely inaccurate. But I'm not trying to make a friggin doctoral thesis about it.

I did find this interesting, though:

Quote:

B. Sweeping generalization. Proof?




I have already explicitly acknowledged this to be a generalization, so this is clearly more semantic bullsh1t on your part. However, I assume YOU have proof that all Aikido DOES practice with resistance, since you apparently disagree with me? And again, if you have proof of Aikido people winning in MMA (thus showing it's effectiveness in MMA), please share. I choose not to hold my breath at this point.

Grady -

I stand corrected about Stevens. I mis-read a quote from one of his books talking about training experiences with Ueshiba, which I had interpreted to mean that Stevens had trained with Ueshiba. He was actually referring to other people. This interview quotes him as beginning Aikido in 1973, after Ueshiba died in 1969:

http://www.aikido-world.com/articles/JohnStevens-interview1.htm

I don't feel that this materially undermines my argument, since the book I referred to earlier was written in concert with one of Ueshiba's direct students, and not by Stevens alone.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#398993 - 08/14/08 08:07 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you, since you made a claim that assertion A is true, but you have no evidence, other than anecdotal evidence, to back up that claim. It is a logical fallacy to dismiss my counter-claim as false, because you haven't proven yours to be true.

If you can't understand what I'm getting at, then may I gently suggest looking up "logical fallacies". It's got nothing to do with twisting your "statements into kind of scientific/statistical/strawman analysis", or making a doctoral thesis. But if you're going to make a statement, then let's at least have some semblance of rigour to it.

Quote:

Quote:

B. Sweeping generalization. Proof?


I have already explicitly acknowledged this to be a generalization, so this is clearly more semantic bullsh1t on your part.


No, it is not semantic BS. It's about you making an assertion that is not proven to be true, and associating it with another assertion which you then claim as being true. Again, it's about applying rigour to the debate.

Otherwise, we're just going round in circles.... followed by personal attacks when you can't argue the point.


Edited by eyrie (08/14/08 08:16 AM)

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#398994 - 08/14/08 08:24 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
A quick synopsis of this thread so far:

Prizewriter - How about Aikido techniques in MMA?

Eyrie - Let's not get too technical, Aikido is about principles

MattJ - Aikido footwork is good

Iaibear - Aikido is hard

E - You are an idiot

Harlan - How long does it take to get good at Aikido?

E - Stupid question

MJ - Not a stupid question

Wristtwister - You are all idiots

MJ - Aikido people don't win in MMA

E - You have no proof

MJ - ????? Neither do you

E - *silence*

WT - Aikido people use swords

MJ - WTF?

E - I beat JJ black belts and godan Goju guys with one finger

MJ - WTF? Show me

E - You hate Aikido and you know nothing about martial arts

MJ - No I don't and yes I do

WT - I have trained with good people and you can't say anything about Aikido until you're 5th dan

MJ - Whatever

E - You guys are a bunch of VTG's who make the ads on this site. I won't put up any proof because I don't have to.

WT - Go to an Aikido school

MJ - I have. How about that video, Eyrie?

WT - You untrained idiots here have no respect

MJ - LOL

E - Your argument sucks, you hate Aikido

MJ - That's not what I said

E - Bell curve, logical assertion, statistics

MJ - Video?

E - I'm out

E - I'm back

MJ - LOL

E - semantics

WT - You're wrong and you don't know $hit

MJ - You're right

E - Prove it/semantics

_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#398995 - 08/14/08 08:34 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Lovely... makes you look so mature.

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#398996 - 08/14/08 09:52 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: eyrie]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Hardly... it was a pointed remark aimed at discrediting Grady, because you do not accept my arguments. And since Grady's arguments are along the same lines as mine, therefore Grady is, guilty by association, and therefore also wrong. How else did you think the average rational person was going to take it?





eyrie....you are "projecting".

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