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#398857 - 06/07/08 09:13 AM Aikido in an MMA setting
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Things are quiet round here, so I decided to visit this topic. I know it has been touched on before, but I wanted to bring it up again in a more specific manner. In the past most Aikido/MMA conversations have come up in "Would Aikido work in real life" type threads.

Please note this is a technical thread concerning using the movements/principles of Aikido in an MMA setting. The philisophical aspect of whether Aikido should be used in such a setting is another topic. So if you want to bring it up feel free to do so. Just not here thank you very much!

Upon completing my second BJJ class recently, I noticed that from the mount position (me being on top) I had to pin my opponents arms by pushing my arms in to his armpit. While doing this, I found that using the technique for the so called "Unbendable Arm" in Aikido worked nicely. My opponent was unable to grab me with his arms because I was pushing against his arm pits. BTW in my experience "The unbendable arm" comes about from strong body mechanics and being able to really relax.

Another useful move against fellow BJJ noobs (but no one else) were wrist locks. Though I wasn't able to get any sort of submission with them, I was able to distract with them. On one occasion I did a make shift Kote Hineri (top example on this website: http://www.ttac.0catch.com/tekubi.htm) on a purple belt. It didn't bother him really, but he moved to grab the hand I was using for Kote Hineri and his shift in momentum allowed me to escape from a tricky position.

I am thinking that possibly Hiji Waza (elbow control techniques) could help me with controlling a guys arms.

On other move I was thinking about was a variation of Gedan-ate. It is a free style Tomiki version I saw before. You basically meet an opponent by dipping side on beneath his centre of gravity as a form of takedown. Even it the takedown didn't come off, you could still end up in an decent position to attack the legs of a standing opponent.

Here is a really good example of freestyle Gedan-Ate from a Tomiki Aikido Competition (it occurs are around 00:25 of the clip):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt8YwPaPCY

Now I am not saying that BJJ = MMA, but it is a widely used part of MMA usually.

Any thoughts/ideas of your own re Aikido movements being used in MMA?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#398858 - 06/07/08 10:21 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
You're right. BJJ is huge piece of the MMA pie (as is boxing/muay Thai and wrestling).

As far an aikido component for MMA...I just don't see it. This is coming from a perspective that aikido is about wrist manipulation. That isn't going to happen beyond any basic Greco-Roman handfighting in any meaningful sense I'm afraid. But anything is possible (just not likely).

Just my opinion.

-John

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#398859 - 06/07/08 11:32 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Point taken. My BJJ coach said wrist manipulations won't really work most of the time. As I mentioned, the only people who I caught with them (aside from a fluke purple belt incident) were noobs who had only a few weeks training.

Wrist locks aside, Aikido uses a lot of principles re using your own body to break the balance of an opponent. It is a similar idea to that of Judo. Here is another Gedan Ate Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnI8FnnAQx4

Possibilites possibly for Waki Gatame too. The mechanics seem similar to the standing armbar clip posted in the MMA forum not too long ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mPUGJwG-Dg (Tomiki Aikido)

They an almost identical move in Judo going by the same name:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyI0wVc7RTU&feature=related

So it COULD work under an full resistance setting I think.

I think Aikido (well Tomiki Aikido) has some moves in it that if trained properly could be effective in a full resistance, MMA setting. Tomiki Aikido already has resisting competitions and "sports" rules, so I think anything that could be useful in an MMA setting would be more apparent in Tomiki Aikido.

Will try and find more examples of what I mean.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#398860 - 06/07/08 03:00 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Prizewriter]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Prize-

I agree with John that I think Aikido is at something of a disadvantage on the ground against BJJ. I do feel that Aikido has some good things going on in terms of footwork against incoming strikes and grabs. I have employed some of those principles (angles and spins) into my stand-up, with some sucess.

Loved that Gedan-Ate!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#398861 - 06/07/08 03:41 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: MattJ]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Here is a nice example of Tenshu Randori from Tomiki Aikido. It is the empty handed Aikido sparring:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRlKQpn1RXc

I know Aikido in and of itself wouldn't be much use in an MMA setting. I was wondering though if a modified version of Aikido would work though... After all, from what I have read on the MMA forums here and elsewhere, most of what has been included in "standard" MMA (e.g. Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, BJJ) has had to be modified somewhat to work.

I posted on the Judo/Ju Jutsu forum about a pro MMA'ist who had a background in Judo. He changed his Judo to suit MMA. Judo and Aikido have similar ideas and methods (and even similar moves as shown above lol!) but different training methods. Once heard a wise man mention that it isn't always what you train, but how you train


Do you guys think that Aikido wouldn't be much use in MMA as there are already more effective methods of training in place within, for want of a better expression, "standard" MMA?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#398862 - 06/07/08 04:14 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
FYI...I don't have anything against aikido (having trained in it for a while some years back). I just think that the nature of the training itself makes it unrealistic. To make aikido work, it has to be trained in an MMA format and not in an aikido format, if that makes any sense. That's the only way, I believe, to be able to see what flies and what doesn't in terms of aikido technique within that context (as well as to modify the entries, etc).

What you'd need to do is have a high ranking aikido guy join an MMA gym and gradually attempt to play his game against the other stylists.

Now, what I want you to do is form a mental image of an aikido guy in an MMA gym. Play this out and I think you'll probably get a good picture of what might occur.

That isn't to say that the principles of aikido cannot work. However I believe that many of those principles are perhaps already in place, yet may not be immediately recognizable.

The thing is, when an art is trained in an MMA format, it all ends up looking pretty much the same. And again, for any art to "work" in MMA, has to be trained within that context.


Quote:


Do you guys think that Aikido wouldn't be much use in MMA as there are already more effective methods of training in place within, for want of a better expression, "standard" MMA?





I think there is a standard or "generic" MMA. That is Boxing, wrestling and BJJ. These serve to ground people in the fundamentals (delivery systems) that work in mma. I believe that once those are in place, you can "branch out" and experiment with other arts. Without those however, I think you end up building a house of cards for the most part.

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#398863 - 06/07/08 06:43 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Believe it or not I have a friend who is in an ideal candidate: He has been doing MMA for 4.5 years and and Aikido for 10!

Problem is something I touched on earlier: So called "ethical issues". Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, wasn't big on competitions. I think that is the biggest problem for Aikido being used in MMA. There is a culture within most Aikido schools that exists which views any sort of involvement with combat sport negatively. So they keep Aikido away from it.

Case in point: My friends instructor (my old teacher too) told him he wouldn't teach him Aikido anymore if my friend were to try and enter an MMA competition again. Wasn't in keeping with the spirit of Aikido apparently. All of which is fine, except the school is Tomiki school, meaning that the Sensei says its ok to compete in Aikido competitions!!!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#398864 - 06/07/08 10:31 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Dig it, but you don't have to compete to spar/test. Perhaps these schools also have something against sparring. Well no, they do randori...so perhaps they just have something against realistic sparring.

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#398865 - 06/12/08 09:08 AM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: JKogas]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
I don't see it either, too uke oriented and pre arranged. I love to watch Aikido and have incorporated many of their techniques into our SD system but for MMA purposes...nope.
Not saying you can't sneak a technique in here or there to assist your nomal takedowns or locks.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#398866 - 06/12/08 12:23 PM Re: Aikido in an MMA setting [Re: schanne]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-0bjAFgIZ8

This is Tanto Randori. Some decent moves in here (nice throw at 00:25).

I think the movements are there in Aikido, they just need to be effectively trained. As with a lot of TMA, I think a good whack of what is taught in Aikido re movements would fall by the way side if it was trained realistically (though I do think principles, such as staying centred, would still be useful).

The way Aikido is trained in its current format would not be suitable though against MMA.

Or would is it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxYkZP25X2g

There you have it, stone cold proof! Top Aikido guy doing a number on a top MMAist
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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