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#398350 - 06/06/08 11:57 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'Karate-Do and Karate-Jutsu are in my view one and the same.'

of course you are right for many people,

however for many thousands more this statement does not hold true hence my use of it to highlight different training approaches to karate.

A simple example is that someone who trains kata primarily for asthetic effect is far more karatedo than the Jutsu, whom would be someone who uses the lessons from the kata in application practice,

it may not be pretty..............and certainly wouldn't place in the monthly tournament.

But I get your point and agree.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#398351 - 06/06/08 12:40 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

There are more ways to release energy than resistance training Matt.




For martial arts? I guess we will have to agree to disagree, then.

Can't see any functional way to train in energy release in a situation where there is none, IMHO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#398352 - 06/06/08 02:50 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: MattJ]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Matt,

I think you're not looking at energy release the way I am.

When your body moves it is releasing its energy. Run a race and tell me you don't realize the energy release. Similarily kata studies require movement and energy release to effect same.

Now imparting impact energy into another body is a different sort of energy release, and the use of kata to refine energy release is not the impact release variety.

Kata has never been the whole picture, just a very important part of the whole. Subsidiary drills such as makiwara training, and partner drills begin to approach some of those other issues (but this answer is too simplistic to explain the whole).

Most especially my karate studies incoroporate the energy utliziation of objects in my hand imparting their impact into one's face (following Motobu's choice of primary striking target).

Karate just being kara-te not empty hand.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#398353 - 06/06/08 04:47 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


A simple example is that someone who trains kata primarily for asthetic effect is far more karatedo than the Jutsu,




I put it to you that someone practicing kata for aesthetic values is not practicing either Do or Jutsu. Your allusion to sport karate is the most accurate division in which to place such a practitioner.

When you study higher education you study to Bachelor level, then Master level, then Dr of Philosophy level. At the last you are into the philosophy, the why of the subject of study. This is what Do is, the philosophy, the why. If you don't have the practical and all the hard work that it incorporates then there is nothing to philosophise about.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#398354 - 06/06/08 08:15 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
understood, kind of..............im a little slow.

persoanlly I place little value on the 'do' elements (to much bull going on by Seniors),

outside of living your life in a basically decent manner, which you don't need karate for IMO, but it can help.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#398355 - 06/06/08 10:01 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
My understanding of Do or at least the training of it has very little to do with how you live your life in a general sense.

Simply put I understand Karate-do to be training as hard as one can and through this developing the will, discipline and mental stamina to push yourself to new heights of physical and martial prowess.

What precisely your training consists of is up to you. Attempting to attain a mythical state of perfection in performance of a kata is one way of doing this. Similarly punching a makiwara until you can punch through it would also work, so to would setting the goal of completing the 30 man kumite with only the techniques and principles of a single kata, or just attaining the prowess that would allow one to complete the 30 man kumite.

Personal growth through discipline and hard work is the aim of Do. The jutsu is simply the path you take to get there, i.e. the particular work that you choose to do, be it reality based self defense fighting training or endless oizuki's up and down the dojo.

Personally I feel that Do only or Jutsu only approaches are incomplete. The old warriors who came up with these notions (and they were warriors) realised that without the mental strength to overcome fear and remain calm martial skill was useless. The same thing our reality based self defense guru's are realising today. Nowadays we are advised to adjust our self defense training around our fear responses, but back then those who fought on battlefields sought to eliminate the fear altogether. All the Bushido stuff that surrounds the training is meant to insure that the physically superior, martially lethal and utterly fearless products of this training had enough of a moral code to insure they didn't abuse their ability.

Now the behavoiur codes may not be relevant to the teaching of adults in the here and now, but the emphasis on hard work, perseverance and discipline to embolden the mind and spirit I feel should always be part of Karate.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#398356 - 06/06/08 10:13 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Always the lone voice, As I don't see karate as anything but karate, not a warrior art, not for fighting, perhaps minimally for destroying minor inpedements in one's way, I also don't see it as Jutsu or Do, terms to try and explain an Okinawan art to the Japanese.

Something arose as karate and moved through the tidal flow of generations, period.

I believe the key isn't try and explain it through other terms, but to dare to step back, before.

Before rules, before lines, before conceptions and before public sharing, back when there was almost no technical vocabulary, just an instructor impressing his art on your body till it took.

Unknown, unnamable, shrouded in deception.

karate
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#398357 - 06/06/08 10:19 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Victor Smith]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Impress is probably a better word...but I like 'imprint' because it's not just the body. It's a melding of mind/body...of sharing a cognitive map as well.

I mean, you close your eyes, and do kata...and your teacher is there as well.

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#398358 - 06/06/08 10:22 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Victor Smith]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Come on Victor, it's not that romantic or mysterious.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#398359 - 06/06/08 11:12 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Brian,

As I try and follow these convulated discussions I think what karate was when I began, with no definations just practice, is both mysterious and romantic to what others are saying.

Of course my idea of romance is when you're moving, my hand slices through your neck, alas.


Edited by Victor Smith (06/06/08 11:13 PM)
_________________________
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