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#398340 - 06/05/08 03:39 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

There is a separate thread for this aint there!?




yep.




Care to dance?

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=1#Post16002803
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#398341 - 06/05/08 04:10 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Its primary purpose is a mechanism to develop a signature energy release in technique study




Once again Victor you have said something that went over peoples' heads, judging from zero comment. Says something, doesn't it?




LOL. Didn't go over my head - I just don't agree with that at all. Can't have "energy release" without resistance, IMHO.







There are more ways to release energy than resistance training Matt.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#398342 - 06/06/08 05:57 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:


LOL. Didn't go over my head - I just don't agree with that at all. Can't have "energy release" without resistance, IMHO.






Quote:

There are more ways to release energy than resistance training Matt.





I just farted laughing...,

There was some resistance, and (multiple) energy release.

Back on track:
Kata training isn't just solo work IMHO.


Edited by Ives (06/06/08 05:57 AM)
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Ives

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#398343 - 06/06/08 06:30 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Ives]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I agree,

If we look at kata as the 'transport method' of the art then it begines to take it's true place, put simply in karatedo solo kata has a far more significant place than say karate Jutsu which has a more defined emphasis on partner work and other supportive training.

Sure, solo kata work, particualry in the learning of said kata phase has a big emphasis in our training, but that changes as we grow within the kata and extract the principles and techniques from it,

which are then worked with various partners, with various levels of resistance, fixed, semi fixed and finally free drills of course develop.

Personally I do not see much benefit in solo kata (particualry in fighting skills devleopment),

but it does make up part of the art I practice but in no way does it lead,

'kata training' is a different animal altogether (and IMO is the centre of traditional karate) and is often misrepresented in the the importance of solo work.

The same IMO can be said for Kihon repetative training on air, again it has it's place for technique refinement and learning but ultimatly hitting things, manipulatiing things and avoiding real blows brings much better results, if thats what your after anyhow.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#398344 - 06/06/08 06:32 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: MattJ]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You know my thoughts on kata as a solo conditioning tool.

I also believe was a good way to "package" techniques/applications/knowledge so that they could be passed on, particularly in the pre-written era. This still applies to some extent.
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#398345 - 06/06/08 07:17 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Dan,

I see kata delivering some conditioning benefits,

but no where near the level of simple bodyweight routines (or running, aerobics etc etc) and of course equipment led approachs (very traditional of course).

For me physical conditioning is not one of katas strengths.

I do accept hard reps over and over again will bring some conditioning benefit, I can just think of more appropiate ways to achieve that (same with Kihon on air).
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#398346 - 06/06/08 09:37 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: creative]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Creative:

Wow, extensive poll choices, thank you for all that work.

Kata are physical teaching tools to engrain mechanical-structural habits by repetition and careful exploration. In time (not immediately) with numerous training partners. 5,000 times as consistantly, precisely as possible with different people and I learn nuances, subtleties of how the technique works and is challenged...

Solo practice is NOT valueless. It engrains the mandatory structure and explains how power is generated for particular techniques. It requires patience and commitment. Once I can do the kata without hesitation, with adequate power I am ready to explore its application, its usage.

Usage/application is N-O-T random. If an attack is high but, I cannot use a movement sequence that has me kneeling against that attack. Movements exist to defend against numerous attacks but not necessarily within that particular kata.

Kata have sub systems to learn power generation in order to neutralize/end physical attacks, as well as explore the sensations, the physology of intense combat. Examine those sensations, explore them and their effects can be used to our benefit.

Its mental-psychological powers build strong determination, intense concentration and a serious "detachment".

Thats my view and I'm sticking to it.

Jeff

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#398347 - 06/06/08 10:06 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: shoshinkan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

If we look at kata as the 'transport method' of the art then it begines to take it's true place, put simply in karatedo solo kata has a far more significant place than say karate Jutsu which has a more defined emphasis on partner work and other supportive training.




If one is practicing Karate as a "Do" art it may be helpful for them to understand the idea of Shiho or transmission in terms of Zen or other Buddhist practice. In terms of transfering technique "transport method" is probably accurate enough.

I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to use this analogy...

For some, the kata is to Karate Do is what the the koan is to Zen

(keeping in mind not all branches of Zen practice koans).

From Wiki...

Quote:

Speculation over what the Buddha transmitted to Mahakasyapa has taken place ever since, though "[e]ndless speculations will not reveal it—it is to be discovered each for him or herself, in the course of Zen training."[3] It should also be stated that, "... dharma transmission really entails no transmission at all in the sense of something being passed from one person to another, only the awakening of the disciple to the true nature of his or her own being





Sometimes preference for a tradition or a method of practice can create an attachment to that method. If the goal of a "Do" art is as in Zen, (understanding your true nature) then many methods are potentially beneficial. Kata can play a role it that. Or not.


If I decided that I wanted to attend the next East Coast get together I would have to decide how to get there. I would need to make a choice about what vehicle I would use for that journey. I could go by plane, train or auto. Well, flying may be the fastest option but I'm not keen on flying. I really enjoy driving although it is generally slower. Some people would even think I'm "crazy" to consider driving.

Everyone that would be going to the Meet and greet will choose how they get there. Some may take a bus or even ride a bike. Personally I may think riding a bike is crazy.

Here is what would really be crazy...

If we all traveled those great distances to get together and when we arrived, refused to get out of our vehicles and enjoy each others company.

Sometimes awakening includes the realization that the vehichle (method) used to bring the person to a destination or level of realization can be set aside.
_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#398348 - 06/06/08 10:10 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: oldman]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#398349 - 06/06/08 11:51 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Karate-Do and Karate-Jutsu are in my view one and the same.

Karate cannot in my view be properly internalised inside the dojo alone. Self study and self development is a must wether you call what you do Jutsu or Do.

A kata is in essence, just a sequence of movements. That is the tool with which we work. We can do them fast over and over again for an hour and we have a workout as good as an aerobics session. We can do them slowly with weights and we have a unique conditioning exercise that develops strength and endurance for use in applying the moves, or simply as a challenge to our discipline and mental strength. Done slowly unweighted we have a great holistic balance and strengthening drill as well as a means of connecting or internal mechanics more directly to our thought processes as well as presenting different ways in which to perform and so use the movements. Time spent studying those movements and how they are put together teaches us strategies and tactics about the art. If you are practicing Kata then you are doing Karate. There's no doubt about what activity you are involved in and I believe that mental focus alone is very valuable.

Kata may not be the heart of Dojo training, but IMO it should be at the heart of our individual journeys in Karate.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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