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#398320 - 06/04/08 04:02 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Kata is a method to preserve fighting techniques and principles of a person or groups of people. In training fighting techniques and their application are learned first. Then kata is learned to reinforce the lessons, provide a vehicle for refinement of technique and movement, as well as balanced physical development for long term study. Kata training is about development of trained response to attacks.




Very well put.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#398321 - 06/04/08 04:40 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: creative]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I find the question really difficult Creative, because it uses the word "intend." I have no doubt that kata were INTENDED to help with defense against attacks, to perfect character, to defend against multiple opponents and so on and so forth. The problem is, I think they don't achieve what they intend.

Call me rude, or a know it all or whatever, but I strongly believe that people in the past simply didn't understand fighting like we do today. I think they trained often inefficiently and that if you compare the methods they used to methods used by today's MMAists, kickboxers etc. then they would be found pretty lacking.

Of course I have respect for past masters, they achieved a great deal and helped developed martial arts a great deal. But to argue that they knew how to train to perform in a fight or any other pressurised physical pursuit, better than today's sports scientists is pure fantasy.


Edited by Supremor (06/04/08 04:41 PM)

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#398322 - 06/04/08 05:16 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Supremor]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
If you or anyone here believes that kata are for defending against multiple attackere you are way behind the curve.

Many tkd'ers and some karateka practice this because they were taught by their 2 and 3yr blackbelt teachers who were taught this. It's just a ridiculous scenario.
These and other goofy interpretations of kata need to be ixnayed.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#398323 - 06/04/08 05:32 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I'm not behind the curve at all, in fact I believe that if anyone seriously believes that kata are an effective method of training self defense or fighting, it is they who are behind the curve.

My point is that some of the masters who came up with such kata believed that they could help with multiple assailants. By no means all of them, but some of them certainly.

Quote:

These and other goofy interpretations of kata need to be ixnayed.




For sure, although I think that all interpretations of kata should be "ixnayed"(by the way, is it a real word?). Simply an outdated form of training. Also, I'm sure that they were meant to be effective, and I would in no way question the motives of those who created the patterns- they were simply creating the best system of SD/fighting that they knew how to. Unfortunately for kata, times have changed and we know more.

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#398324 - 06/04/08 05:43 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Supremor]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Cheers for all who have added their thoughts so far. Some interesting posts already.

Supremor,
As i mentioned in the 1st post, I found the wording difficult and was actually expecting a bit more stick that what i've got (cheers guys!), but i think most people have grasped the intent of the question and answers and are getting on with it despite my short comings!

I don't really want this thread to go down the kata is useless line.

Perhaps people may want to add why they feel (with evidence if possible e.g. example of kata and application/reference to histoical text/conversations with named experienced individuals) they made certain selections. Let's keep it positive!
_________________________
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#398325 - 06/04/08 06:25 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: Supremor]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I don't think 'ixnayed' is a word,lol.

Kata can be used for a variety of things,but some of the things people say they use kata today for are far fetched to say the least.

The mere doing of kata will not help with self defense, it's the application process of kata that does if you wish to use ot that way.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#398326 - 06/04/08 09:12 PM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I don't think 'ixnayed' is a word,lol.

Kata can be used for a variety of things,but some of the things people say they use kata today for are far fetched to say the least.

The mere doing of kata will not help with self defense, it's the application process of kata that does if you wish to use ot that way.




Self defense can mean a lot of things. It can mean staying out of trouble and running fast. What specific skills do you believe kata can teach if trained properly?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#398327 - 06/05/08 12:58 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

I don't think 'ixnayed' is a word,lol.

Kata can be used for a variety of things,but some of the things people say they use kata today for are far fetched to say the least.

The mere doing of kata will not help with self defense, it's the application process of kata that does if you wish to use ot that way.




Self defense can mean a lot of things. It can mean staying out of trouble and running fast. What specific skills do you believe kata can teach if trained properly?




Angles and directions of attacking specific targets.
Push/pull or two way action of locks,breaks/dislocations, throws, and strikes.
Proper breathing.
Proper techniques(stances,strikes,etc.).
Conditioning.(mind and body)

What doesn't kata teach? Except groundfighting?


Learning the interpretations or bunkai of kata can lead to good self defense imo.
Starting with specific attacks and defenses kata is broken down into several parts, each only containing one or more moves directly from the kata.
Each part can be drilled over and over upping the resistance and moved into non-specific attacks until the moves becomes reactive.

Kata is the foundation of karate and everything is built upon it.
Kata is just a tool, "you could build a house, or just drop it on your foot."
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#398328 - 06/05/08 05:15 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Principles like kuzushi and sabaki are stored in kata.

Kansetsu-waza, osae-waza, some shime-waza, tsuki-waza, ashi-waza, keri-waza.
Joint-locking, holds, some chokes, punches/strikes, footwork (broad), kicking.
The above can all be found in kata. It's not all there is to kata.

The way you approch them, determines your level of understanding what they are for, and how they can benefit you.

What JKogas stated are ways how kata are used today also. I feel sorry for the study and use of kata in that way. It gives kata a bad name.
_________________________
Ives

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#398329 - 06/05/08 11:32 AM Re: What do YOU do? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I don't think 'ixnayed' is a word,lol.

Kata can be used for a variety of things,but some of the things people say they use kata today for are far fetched to say the least.

The mere doing of kata will not help with self defense, it's the application process of kata that does if you wish to use ot that way.




Self defense can mean a lot of things. It can mean staying out of trouble and running fast. What specific skills do you believe kata can teach if trained properly?




Angles and directions of attacking specific targets.
Push/pull or two way action of locks,breaks/dislocations, throws, and strikes.
Proper breathing.
Proper techniques(stances,strikes,etc.).
Conditioning.(mind and body)

What doesn't kata teach? Except groundfighting?


Learning the interpretations or bunkai of kata can lead to good self defense imo.
Starting with specific attacks and defenses kata is broken down into several parts, each only containing one or more moves directly from the kata.
Each part can be drilled over and over upping the resistance and moved into non-specific attacks until the moves becomes reactive.

Kata is the foundation of karate and everything is built upon it.
Kata is just a tool, "you could build a house, or just drop it on your foot."




So if this is true, what combat environments can skills gained from kata training help you fight in? That is other than self defense. Or is self defense the only "house" you can build with kata?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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