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#398050 - 07/15/08 02:18 PM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking old [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Nice article, Dan. People see movies where a kick sends someone flying and think that's what power is, but I know from both sides of the issue that a proper kick sends the recipient straight to the floor.

Perhaps Westerners like the extended kick more because of the length of their legs, but they're sacrificing the ability to kick at very close ranges.
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#398051 - 07/16/08 03:41 AM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking old [Re: Ironfoot]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Thanks Ironfoot.

Funnily enough, I was watching this video of Higaonna on Way of the Warrior - note his "old style" kicks at about 0:16:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uZPn5Ib_P8&feature=related.
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#398052 - 07/24/08 04:25 AM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: dandjurdjevic]
debushi Offline
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Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 11
Whip kicking is the old way. Push kicking became more prevalent as the result of jiyu kumite. Extended kicks in matches are easier to see and score. With the integration of modern ring oriented Muay Thai, the "teep' or pushing front kick was also adopted by many modern karate-ka and kickboxers.

I did see Michael MacDonald (K-1) connect with a high snapping toe-kick to an opponents throat which stunned him and resulted in a TKO win for Michael. The announcers didn't even understand what had happened until they replayed the tech like 4 times from various angles. Even then they thought that it contacted his jaw when it never did.

The Mae Geri Keage seen in Shotokan and other Modern Karate styles is a bit different than that seen in some Southern Chinese systems, Uechi Ryu and Matsumura Seito Karate Jutsu. Initially you may learn to whip kick from a bent knee chamber, but later in partner sets you transition to a no-chamber kick which whips from the ground up and SEEMS to come from a telegraphed chamber. You are also told to focus on using lead leg, not rear leg, kicks in the more Chinese influenced styles.

Even many styles of Okinawan Karate use the modern snap kick with the rear leg.

I liked your videos, DanDJ. Good stuff...


Edited by debushi (07/24/08 04:26 AM)

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#398053 - 07/24/08 09:47 AM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: debushi]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Debushi, whip kicking with the rear leg is not about modern or old, its about fighting distance. Japanese and Euoprean style point fighters utilize the front leg kicking techniques extensively, but that is due to the distance at which they fight. The front kick is actually an inclose tech. Using the rear leg is utlized in close, especially when you are kicking your opponent's far leg and the other leg is blocked by your opponent's near leg.
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#398054 - 07/24/08 11:11 AM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Debushi, whip kicking with the rear leg is not about modern or old, its about fighting distance. Japanese and Euoprean style point fighters utilize the front leg kicking techniques extensively, but that is due to the distance at which they fight. The front kick is actually an inclose tech. Using the rear leg is utlized in close, especially when you are kicking your opponent's far leg and the other leg is blocked by your opponent's near leg.




Marcel I agree with most of your post. However I don't think Debushi was referring to "old" vs. "modern" karate as much as he was pointing out the karate vs. "modern arts" (eg. Muay Thai). Distance is a big factor (the "whip kick" is a close range technique for sure). As we discussed (and agreed to disagree) I'm of the view that closer fighting should be more dominant in karate. Having said this, I agree that a more penetrating kick or a "distance" kick is also part of karate's arsenal. Neither is anything like the "push kick" of the modern arts. I think Machida has demonstrated quite well the more "distance-oriented" mae geri of karate - still nothing like the "push kick" (ie. it actually hits instead of pushes).

So I think where we disagree is a matter of emphasis (specifically on distancing and tactics)...

Thanks for the kind remarks btw Debushi!
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#398055 - 07/24/08 11:27 AM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

As we discussed (and agreed to disagree) I'm of the view that closer fighting should be more dominant in karate.




Huh? That was not the disagreement. The disagreement was that I said karate is mainly a close range system and you said it was a middle(melee) range system.
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#398056 - 07/24/08 12:10 PM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Ah. I misunderstood.

In any event the disagreement was based on the time one spends in the melee... I agree with your "close in" observation, just that, for me, is the finish, where most of the action is in the melee.
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#398057 - 07/24/08 06:48 PM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
just as a thought, when people talk about making the bag 'shudder' and jump as opposed to swing, ie with punches the same is true for the older method of Okinawan kicking.

It's very destructive in relation to impact, and very efficient with it (minamum set up, minamum loss of balance, quick recovery)

I still see benefit in the 'push' kicks of course (not that I use them much, prefering short kicks/hands combi's),
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#398058 - 07/24/08 07:06 PM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Indeed Jim.

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#398059 - 07/24/08 08:03 PM Re: Information pertaining to Isshinryu kicking [Re: medulanet]
debushi Offline
Banned

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 11
Quote:

Debushi, whip kicking with the rear leg is not about modern or old, its about fighting distance. Japanese and Euoprean style point fighters utilize the front leg kicking techniques extensively, but that is due to the distance at which they fight. The front kick is actually an inclose tech. Using the rear leg is utlized in close, especially when you are kicking your opponent's far leg and the other leg is blocked by your opponent's near leg.




I agree to an extent, but in close why would you kick? Headbutts, hands, elbows and knees (that's what kick chambering really teaches) are all much better options as are throws, trips, sweeps and the like. You should always try and use the weapon closest to your opponent. This sets up everything and can also be the decisive technique of many.

For the street, leaving one of your two points of balance is not the best option, so why would you use kicking with the rear or any leg as a primary weapon? Kicking for SD is not that smart. If you do it needs to be low, fast and at the minimum a lead for a unbalancing move, trip or throw entry.

Machida is a good example of why the lead vs. the reverse. He leads with his strong arm, but doesn't use it exclusively, just primarily. From a distance he kicks with both legs. By the way, some tend to deride Shotokan, but his brand is more in line with old Okinawan Shorin Ryu, and that's because his father knew the old style Shotokan before point competition became a focus. He trains karate as much or more tha the other aspects, and he's making some rethink what they thought real karate was (boosheet) as opposed to what REAl karate is (a very effective and efficient fighting system).

I think Dan was trying to show what is missing in the modern and it's the use of a whipping versus a thrusting kick. He used the term "snapping". Good kickboxers utilize both, and Savate guys are famous for their lead leg kicks, but most Muay Thai, Japanese Karate, TKD, TSD and other more modern martial artists neglect the lead leg whip kick. Savate is different in that it a street-based style adapted for the ring.

I know what you're saying though, and trust me I have always practiced both, especially in training because who knows what you'll need. Old style karate tends to focus about 80-90% on nonkicking techniques for a reason, imho.

Good thread...

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