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#397833 - 05/29/08 06:45 PM On Freedom
LifesFist Offline
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On what our life is based on? On wanting pleasure? On wanting to be a winner? Responces to our instincts, emotions?

Why I do What I do?

Because I want, or because Iam forced, influenced by something??

I believe, I do what I do because I know that this is meaningful to me, and no one could force me to live a not meaningful life.

What about You?
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#397834 - 05/29/08 08:39 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

On what our life is based on? On wanting pleasure? On wanting to be a winner? Responces to our instincts, emotions?

Why I do What I do?

Because I want, or because Iam forced, influenced by something??




Yes.
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#397835 - 05/29/08 09:23 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
jkdwarrior Offline
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I believe that the purpose of life is simply to live. Emotions and desires distract the majority of people from this simple truth.

The vast majority of our lives are completely beyond our control. We usually live according to our instincts, but are brains are so clever that we believe there is a bigger purpose. Searching for it distracts you from the REAL truth that is in front of you, and strangely enough inside of you at the same time (right in the center of your head for anyone who's interested). Here's what I mean

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqnEGu8VF8Y&feature=related

It gets a bit controversial at the end but I'm sure you'll all make up your own minds.
What we see in front of us is therefore not the truth and the ONLY thing we can really do is perceive. We can perceive pleasure, but the desire of it is fake. It is merely a construct of the mind and the more ideas we gather of the world, the less we actually experience reality and the more it becomes possible for us to be influenced. If you learn to rid yourself of thoughts, feelings and emotions, you get a glimpse of reality that few are ever able to achieve beyond childhood.

I think that life is meaningless and to try and give it meaning is contrary its lack of purpose. Just be. Just perceive. Because for us, it is the only truth.

People have criticised me before for the way I write these kind of posts, so I'll just do a little disclaimer and say that I'm not stating that this is absolute fact, just opinion according to my experience.
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#397836 - 05/29/08 10:09 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

We can perceive pleasure, but the desire of it is fake. It is merely a construct of the mind and the more ideas we gather of the world, the less we actually experience reality and the more it becomes possible for us to be influenced. If you learn to rid yourself of thoughts, feelings and emotions, you get a glimpse of reality that few are ever able to achieve beyond childhood.





I am not going to knock what you say, or even say it's wrong. The fact that you state it is your opinion, and you are not trying to force your opinion on others, is worthy of respect.

I would say you should consider reading the 6 meditaions of René Descartes (1596 - 1650), assuming you haven't aleady. The reason I say that is your reference to reality. The video you posted suffered from an unavoidable circular logic, which Descartes, any many after him have struggled to come to terms with, but have in various ways.

-Kimo
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#397837 - 05/29/08 10:18 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
JKogas Offline
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IMO, freedom is being able to simply observe, and realize that all experiences are truly neutral. Freedom is knowing, that the mind "colors" all experience to either be some degree of good or bad. Freedom is this very understanding and is the simple awareness of "what is" compared to "what should be".

Basically, it's not living life on automatic pilot. Freedom is the true end of suffering through acknowledgment of and transcendence of suffering.

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#397838 - 05/29/08 11:08 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

IMO, freedom is being able to simply observe, and realize that all experiences are truly neutral. Freedom is knowing, that the mind "colors" all experience to either be some degree of good or bad. Freedom is this very understanding and is the simple awareness of "what is" compared to "what should be".

Basically, it's not living life on automatic pilot. Freedom is the true end of suffering through acknowledgment of and transcendence of suffering.




Nicely said, very eightfold path of you

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#397839 - 05/30/08 09:50 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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Thanks, lol. But you're right. I have to give credit where its due.

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#397840 - 05/30/08 11:25 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
LifesFist Offline
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JKD Warrior, interesting points. This time I want to ask You one question, Could You do a single thing if it is meaningless to You?

P.S. I enjoyed You point about pleasure, that we choose it.
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#397841 - 05/30/08 11:34 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
LifesFist Offline
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JKogas, but if someone tries to knock me down, I wont merely observe this. I am free to react in my own way, whatever it may look like.

Observation brings about clarity in what is really going on and enables me to act according to my own sence of freedom. I think without action merely observation is not a realization of our freedom.



I respect Your opinion, but I have some questions
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#397842 - 05/30/08 11:42 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
JKogas Offline
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I certainly wouldn't ask anyone to merely stand by and observe. Thats not what I was getting at though.

I don't have a problem defending myself if need be, nor with anyone else.


-John

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#397843 - 05/30/08 12:04 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
LifesFist Offline
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Is it possible by observing to stay outside causality?

But human being want's to act, to do something. What one can really do? JKD Warrior would say: "simply live" . What does it mean? I think our experiences depends on something, something very personal.

JKogas, do You think freedom is observing?


Edited by LifesFist (05/30/08 12:06 PM)

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#397844 - 05/30/08 12:18 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Is it possible by observing to stay outside causality?




No, merely by being alive, you have affected at least two people - your parents.
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#397845 - 05/30/08 01:43 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: MattJ]
LifesFist Offline
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#397846 - 05/30/08 04:19 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


JKogas, do You think freedom is observing?




I think freedom is complete awareness. That would include observation, so I'd say that's probably about right.

Freedom is simply choosing your responses to life's various situations.


-John

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#397847 - 05/30/08 04:38 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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To me true freedom is probably a state very few people ever reach.

To address the idea of "just living"...this is certainly not what the vast majority of humanity does, most people it seems are plagued day and night with desire, attachment, fear, worry etc., and spend very little time just living.

To me the desire to "act" is not freedom, and in many cases a longing to do this or that could be seen as a form of bondage for many people.

True freedom to me is freedom from all these things, to paraphrase a quote I can't quite remember it is the state of "knowing that there is nothing left to be done".

Here's another (stereotypical I know) quote for ya:

"His work is finished and forgotten, it's fruition ever intact."


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/30/08 04:47 PM)

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#397848 - 05/30/08 04:56 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Freedom is simply choosing your responses to life's various situations.





This hit's fairly close to where my belief pattern falls. Ultimately I look at life like it's a school and our emotional understanding is the lesson plan.

Anyway ultimately you hope to (in this or a future lifetime) attain the ability to chose how you feel/respond to any situation/stimuli.

Everything else is just a vehicle in which to work out these issues we all have.
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#397849 - 05/30/08 05:28 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: Kimo2007]
LifesFist Offline
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Kimo, Impresive

I also heared something similar from B.Lee. It's hard to understand this, but feeling about that is positive. Could You tell more about this.It is really very interesting point to me.

And other thing. I think meaning is part of one's life and existence. One cannot do anything if it is meaningless. And until this meaning is not true meaning of one's life he suffers. I don't talk about universal meaning, but only personal,wich is important only to me and not compulsory to others. Other wise, one would not understand what he is doing, because in this case one would only follow his instincts like an animal does. To observe,and to understand is one's choice, You need determine Your self to observe, to understand. You are free to choose what You want to do. This doing is current experience of Your freedom...

What do You think? I agree about just living. But I don't mean it as a ... just flowing to the ocean, then get high to the sky, then become a river again and so on or being like water. How long one can enjoy going around?

Sorry, but I really don't want to give You any truth, I want only to discuss .
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#397850 - 05/30/08 05:44 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

I also heared something similar from B.Lee.




Well Bruce was a philosophy major ( I think) so it would make sense we read a lot of the same authors.

Quote:

Could You tell more about this.It is really very interesting point to me.





Which point exactly did you want to hear more about, I don't sharing.
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#397851 - 05/30/08 05:46 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
LifesFist Offline
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JKogas, complete awareness is a part of a state of wuwei (nondoing) or Buddhist mind. Is it not?

Is it not a component for one to be free? Maybe, using Your terms, freedom is doing with awareness, living with awareness?

Point about choosing how to responce to lifes various situations sounds good to me too.
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#397852 - 05/30/08 05:50 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: Kimo2007]
LifesFist Offline
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I agree about Lee.

Can You tell me how it should look like, to be able to choose situations in one's life?
At the moment I think that only god can do such things. He is free to create whatever he wants. Take "god" as an idea only, or example.
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#397853 - 05/30/08 05:53 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

JKogas, complete awareness is a part of a state of wuwei (nondoing) or Buddhist mind. Is it not?





It is Buddhist. I'm a practicing Buddhist, but by no means any master.


Quote:


Is it not a component for one to be free? Maybe, using Your terms, freedom is doing with awareness, living with awareness?

Point about choosing how to responce to lifes various situations sounds good to me too.





IMO, freedom is a state of mind. Consider the story of Victor Frankl who discovered more natural freedom than was present within his own captors. They may have had more liberty, but he had more freedom. He had freedom because he had complete awareness, which in turn gave him the ability to choose his reaction to his circumstance.

Also IMO, awareness and freedom doesn't mean passivity. You are free to do whatever you choose, bearing in mind that you pay the ultimate consequences for your actions.

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#397854 - 05/30/08 06:01 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
LifesFist Offline
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JKogas, Thank You for Your answer. I need to research more, so Your statements about freedom are very interesting.

By the way, I am writing my major from V.E.Frankl. It is cool that You know him too.
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#397855 - 05/30/08 06:03 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

Can You tell me how it should look like, to be able to choose situations in one's life?
At the moment I think that only god can do such things. He is free to create whatever he wants. Take "god" as an idea only, or example.




Well as a clarification, I said you can chose how you feel about a situation, not the situation itself.

I believe we have very little say in the situations we find ourselves in, at least on a grand scale. I mean I can chose to drive to McDonalds for lunch or stay home and make myself a sandwich, but in the scheme of things that is a false choice, because so much of what put me here is out of my control. I was not consulted when I was born a male in Wisconsin.

But I do believe someone made those choices for me, as a part of my emotional education, be it God, or my spirt guides what have you, someone or something has put me where I am, my job is to figure out what I am supposed to be doing and learning, and take advantage of the situation given me to accomplish those lessons.
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#397856 - 05/30/08 09:52 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Sorry for not replying sooner.

Lifesfist, here's another way to explain my point. Young children have to do more or less everything conciously. Taking first steps, tying laces etc. etc. The reason being that they haven't learned to do it. After they have learned, the action becomes unconcious and therefore performed without thinking. As we get older, we gradually build up unconcious behaviour and eventually most of our lives are unconcious. We get milk from the fridge, but we've done it so many times that the body and mind automatically knows what to do. All these acts done unconciously are all done in a state of trance. A hypnotist knows and takes advantage of this and through meditation anyone can become aware of it. A hypnotist will tell you to look into their eyes because they give you a sort of staring eye contact that says, "I'm the boss and you will do as I say". The person will immediately go into their "do what the dominant person says" trance that we've all learned, and will obey. They become hypnotised because they BELIEVE they are being hypnotised.

Once you become aware of these trances, its actually quite saddening to see how so many people are in them. But you can also learn how to bring people out and temporarily awaken them.

You say you need to research further. I believe consistent meditation is a good step. It's very difficult at first, but once you get over the initial hurdle of concentration, then you're flying. Most people never pass this first stage and give up, just realise that you can contentrate perfectly without trying to do so, kind of SOFT concentration. Natural and easy.

As for the question of the car. I would of course move out of the way. In the long run, getting knocked down may hold no meaning, but lets not be foolish. If the meaning of freedom is to live and to observe, then lets ensure we can do so for as long as possible.

Having fewer trances will also mean that I am more likely to be aware at this point and may notice and react faster.

In case you're wondering, it also works for fighting. Many of the dominant champions today are at the top not because of having greater physical skill, but because they are more aware. Look at their eyes and you'll see. BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Mohammad Ali are perfect examples. Or just try thinking of blocking a kick when someone is throwing a punching combination at you. Awareness will increase your skill at more of less everything.
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#397857 - 05/31/08 02:33 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
LifesFist Offline
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Interesting
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#397858 - 05/31/08 11:36 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
LifesFist Offline
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JKD Warrior, I guess this time, like any time You are talking from position of science. But let's rely on simple human experience. I wouldn't say that everybody is in trance. It would be too good for them...

If such thing would happen, You would see lot's of zombies everywhere. What's wrong if I take milk without thinking how to take it from the fridge, as You would say unconciously?

People suffer, You cannot say that they are completely in trance.

Awareness. I agree, if You are faster,more aware, then You may force Your oponent to respond to You choice.
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#397859 - 05/31/08 11:37 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
LifesFist Offline
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If You are one with nature, You can use it as way to defeat You opponent.
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#397860 - 05/31/08 11:47 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

If You are one with nature, You can use it as way to defeat You opponent.





Unless of course, he is ALSO one with nature. In that case, you better know something.


-John

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#397861 - 06/01/08 01:11 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
LifesFist Offline
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If He is one with a nature, we won't fight, why,because he is in harmony with everything. If You are like water, You are not a block of river of life.


Edited by LifesFist (06/01/08 01:12 AM)
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#397862 - 06/01/08 08:52 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Quote:

If He is one with a nature, we won't fight, why,because he is in harmony with everything. If You are like water, You are not a block of river of life.




Excellent point!

The thing is I DO see people in trances, as can the majority of experienced meditators. I'm not trying to imply either that I am fully awakened. I have learned however, to spot when I am in a trance. This is the only reason why I can see it in others, and you can do the same. If someone learns to become aware when they are dreaming, they will automatically snap out of it. Make this a habit and you'll never want to go back.

Remember, the past is gone forever and the future is imaginary. Logic therefore dictates the we should become more aware of the present moment because it is the only thing that exists for real.

I know I'm regurgitating the words of others here, but hey, they're good words.
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#397863 - 06/02/08 05:17 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
LifesFist Offline
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Life and Freedom of what we can - mistery.......

JKD Warior, I respect Your opinion .
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#397864 - 06/02/08 05:26 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: JKogas]
LifesFist Offline
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What is important after all in this huge amount of experiences of others and their lives?

How one can be certain about something? I see, there are problems which we can call universal, we need to know universal answer, and there are personal problems, and only this person is responsible for them.

What Do You think?

I doubt that meditation is the only way of being. To be is simply be, something similar to what You said, to live is simply live. But I believe that every individual is different and because of this, his form of life is different.

Maybe I dig too deep : )
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#397865 - 06/02/08 09:18 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
jkdwarrior Offline
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Well the thing is I'm not certain. About anything. I just know that this is what a variety of religions and traditions teach (not that I'm into religion or tradition). I decided to find out more about it so I tried it for myself, and it worked for me.

Meditation is about exploring, and then mastering the mind through thousands of hours of inquisition and practice. One can eventually realise that many of the problems we all encounter need not cause us suffering. The Dalai Lama teaches that if we have a problem, then we sort it out right away or as soon as possible so theres no point in worrying. If we cannot sort out the problem quickly or at all, then we should still not worry about it because the only purpose of this will be to make us feel worse.

Meditation is not the only way either. You could figure out how to end suffering yourself at any time, but meditating does seem to be like taking the express coach.

If my children are running riot, making noise, messing up the place, fighting etc. I don't suffer at these times like many other parents do. I DO feel the stress response, but since I'm used to getting rid of thoughts and emotions, then its almost as if I have an off switch in my head. Even if a blinding fury emerges, all I have to do is realise and it instantly vanishes. The same is true for when I feel jealosy, depression, anxiety, or a range of emotions. When theres a crisis at work, and everyone's running aroud stressed, I can remain calm and indifferent. It really is as if through meditation, one can gain immunity from much of life's suffering. You have to start small in these instances, but over time, you can remain stress free in increasingly stress inducing conditions. I think its a neverending process.

You may be right in that everyone is different, but our bodies and minds are formed of the same things, and develop in the same way, so realistically we're extremely similar. Experiences do mould people and influence them do behave individually, but if you explore deeper, there is usually and underlying reason for this behaviour that is universal.

For example, if 2 men try to chat up a girl, and they are both fearful of approaching her. One person may act super cool or even arrogant to impress her while the other one may stutter and shake. Two completely opposite behaviours, but the motive -in this case fear- is the same. It may appear that we're all different, but our seemingly unpredictable behaviour are all essentially for achieving the same goals.

http://www.doyletics.com/index10.htm

Again meditation is not the only way, but the scientific evidence for its value is extremely strong.
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#397866 - 06/03/08 07:52 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
LifesFist Offline
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Good answer man.

I understand Your attitude. I got Your point about meditation. really, thanks for explaining, it was very interesting to me to read about it. Now I now how it works.

If we try to talk about the same way of life for everyone,then I have more to say.
I believe that human being is not determined by his mind or body. His spirit determines everything. Everything is as You wish. At this point I would say Kimo2007 is closest to the truth with his last post.

I think everyone has the same rights, possibilities. Bad driver and good driver. Car does not have a personal life. Life of a car totally depends on the driver. The same thing with a body and mind. Everything depends on personality and every person in this universe is different from other, In other case You would not recognize this as You don't say that water is made by thousands of thousands of rain drops.


Edited by LifesFist (06/03/08 07:52 AM)
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#397867 - 06/03/08 09:54 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
You know how meditation works? I'm still trying to figure it out. lol!

Does the spirit determine everything? I haven't figured this one out either. It does SEEM like spirit, but I haven't experienced enough to be convinced either way. Maybe I'm not worthy of seeing yet.

As for whether or not we are unique, well you could be right. However, I'm going to disagree (still smiling). One of he most predictable of human traits is the belief that we are unpredictable and will behave individually.
Personality variations will of course cause different reactions and experiences, but the "experiencer" at the fundamental level is remarkably similar. Again, maybe I'm blinded to the truth of this one too, but always ready to change my opinion in the light of more convincing evidence.
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Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#397868 - 06/04/08 12:27 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Anyone got any patchouli oil? My burners getting low.

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#397869 - 06/04/08 10:22 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
LifesFist Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Above Is Heaven, Down Is Earth
What is Spirit? You are. Do You need science to prove that You can make a choice?

It is only my believes. By sharing my believes and trying understand Yours I understand more about my own believes...

You are righ, I only know more about meditation, I forget to put this word only. But anyway You don't know if I know, so You better ask a question, but don't be angry that someone may have what You don't....

These discusions, only a brain sport, a game. I respect You in anyway.

I am Glad That You are smilling in everyway


Edited by LifesFist (06/04/08 10:24 AM)
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#397870 - 06/04/08 10:25 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
LifesFist Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Above Is Heaven, Down Is Earth
Burners burners burners, mine too.......
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#397871 - 06/04/08 07:20 PM Re: On Freedom [Re: LifesFist]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Ok, I get the point, I'll shut up now.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#397872 - 06/05/08 06:22 AM Re: On Freedom [Re: jkdwarrior]
LifesFist Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Above Is Heaven, Down Is Earth

To be continued ...
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