Jude,

You made what appears to be a bizarre claim that ancient Mesopotamians travelled to Okinawa and somehow influenced the development of karate. Then when asked to justify your claim, you backtracked and waffled a bit about your "research" and how the answers are to be found in "earth science and anthropology" which I apparently need to study myself to understand what you are on about.

I do not believe for a moment that such travels took place or affected karate or that there is any evidence for this. I think this is fantasy out of your head, that you pretended to present as fact. This is your approach in all of these threads-you make unjustified claims and say, a bit pompously, you are performing "research".

A few months ago you told me you were "researching" Jion kata (Google, YouTube?), having made fantastical claims in detail about its Chinese origins, details I had seen from no one in 25 years of Shotokan and involvement with this kata. You claim to have studied a bit of Wado but you would not have spent a lot of time on this kata in a Wado school until after Shodan most likely and I doubt you reached anywhere near that level. I asked for information to support your views on Jion and you went silent.

You make similar claims to Goju practicioners here about obscure information in your possession regarding Goju kata and drills. But when challenged you fail to back them up at all.

Then you trash posters as "beginners" (not an insult per se but offensive if someone is actually quite experienced) based on not much evidence at all. Meanwhile you are secretive about your own experience, leading me to think that you have never actually put in the years (or graded to the level that the arrogance of your posts indicates) in any martial art. So please tell me I am wrong Jude and show me by filling in a few of the blanks!

B.

Barad,

Looks like you have jude and his tactics figured out. We probably won't hear from him for a bit because of his "researching" or "training". When you do hear back from him he'll want to know how much you can bench, what karate bunkai you see in the Machida's fights, or how Mike Tyson counters punches. He'll back his facts up by saying he weighs 109kilos so you are wrong and refer to medulanet's posts.
Friggin impossible, random, and weird dude that guy.

Brian,

Yep, you are probably right-makes life interesting though! Pity if he has disappeared as I am genuinely (slightly)curious now (for some reason).
B.

Mesopotamia?

Wow, I guess that beats my thesis on how many koryu techniques can be traced the the Roman legions that made it all the way to China--then their training and skills went from there to Japan.....roman had lots of gladitors you see and they learned many CQC skills, skills which were absorbed into the early Jujutsu schools in Japan.

Sure, it might "seem" like a reach..but you have enough to drink, squint your eyes just right......

Med

I don't think so, what I'm trying to get at is that there are often large differences between people that do the same art and learned under the same teacher.

Take Goju for example, depending on whom you talk to Miyagi's Goju is somewhat different from KH's art---esp when you look at a fundamental kata like Sanchin---KH reportadly looked very much like the present day Uechi Sanchin--open hands with quick movements...as goes the story.

And nobody emperically knows exactly what KH own teacher was doing or how exactly he did it-----there is some pretty good good research and speculation--but that ALSO shows a world of difference in how current practice differs from extint "root" art.
Was KH practice invaild because it no longer looks much at all like Whooping Crane Kung Fu? (as an example)

Or look at Ryuryu--same teacher as KH--as goes the story, yet in many areas they differ...and AGAIN, its supposed to tbe the SAME teacher.

At least one of Miyagi's contempories--and as of 30-40 years ago was a well regarded and respected Naha-te type stylist yet he did not even use the "pigioen toed stance" aka "Sanchin stance" when he did Sanchin kata--said it wasn't really needed--as long as one "felt" the toes were pointed in. (as recounted in Mark Bishops book--the name of the guy escapes me)

There are some serious "differnces" if one wants to use that term, between Miyagis kata and that of his sampei in KH dojo.....Kyodoa.

And the Shorin schools are even farther removed from their roots than the many of the Naha te styles.....since they...like Shotokan..look and "feel" very, very little like the parent or "root" art....what can be gathered from that?

IMO...nothing at all substantive.

Point being is that where one wants to establish a "feeling" depends on where one feels like drawing the line.
Sure it can be argued...but IMO doing so beyond the broadest strokes is a waste of time.

I guess you could say that my question would be "sure it can be argued about...but WHY????

Barad, normally I'd say your questions make perfect sense, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, Jude weighs 109 kilos, and this trumps logic, sorry but he wins



Seriously though, good luck, as Brian mentioned, this is par for the course with him. Requests for him to substantiate his ridiculous claims are met with:

1) ad hominem insults (usually related to your training)
2) More weird unrelated nonsense postings.
3) vague allusions to "research" and "studies"
4) claims of just being a "humble student".

And yeah he trains in a new art all the time, what can you say, the guy is a superstar. He seriously has claimed training in the subject of damn near every thread he's been on, yet strangely he's completely secretive about what he really trains in. As with the thing you mentioned about Jion kata, he also will tell you all about how he knows more than you about the art that you train in, and he doesn't (minus youtube videos I assume).

Cool stuff huh?

Jude,

you said - 'proof of a roundhouse kick in trad Okinawan kata?'

Do you mean you have proof? if so I would be very interested to know about that,

Personally I havent seen/been taught a 'clearly defined roundhouse kick in trad okinawan kata',

and have had several significant seniors tell me it isn't there, so im interested!

Maybee we mean different things re roundhouse and trad okinawan kata?