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#397280 - 06/02/08 03:13 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

So if you are not talking about just solo performance are you also including resistive two man drills used to train application of kata technique and principles?




But now you're talking about two different things, Marcel. Resistive two-man training is not kata. Even two-man kata is not resistive. It's all pre-arranged.

Creative was talking about kata.




This is incorrect, who says 2 man Kata training is always compliant? People seem to be confusing kata for performance and kata for training. When training 2 man drills from kata an element of resistance or chance can and often is thrown in after beginner level.

Some is prearranged yes, so are some drills used in MMA, Judo, etc....so what? Again, have you guys ever done Uchi Komi in Judo? Do you think this practice is not worth it because it's pre arranged?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/02/08 03:21 PM)

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#397281 - 06/02/08 03:34 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

This is incorrect, who says 2 man Kata training is always compliant?




Here for a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kata_(martial_arts)

"Kata (&#22411; or &#24418;, literally: "form"?) is a Japanese word describing detailed choreographed patterns of movements practiced either solo or in pairs."

But my point is that once resistance is introduced, it has no more relationship to kata than any other type of training. Which is fine if you subscribe to Seiken's POV - I do not. Kata is not sparring.

Quote:

People seem to be confusing kata for performance and kata for training. When training 2 man drills from kata an element of resistance or chance can and often is thrown in after beginner level.




See above. I assure you that I am not confusing kata and sparring.

Quote:

Some is prearranged yes, so are some drills used in MMA, Judo, etc....so what? Again, have you guys ever done Uchi Komi in Judo?




Don't do judo. Too scared for my knees!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#397282 - 06/02/08 03:37 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Seiken]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Zach, dont you think it would be easier to prove the points invalid if they were? I dont see anyone doing that with jude at this point.

And your just as bad, everytime jude tries to keep conversation technical you come in with condescending remarks. A true martial artist, always willing to learn right?





If you can show me a "point" that was made in one of Jude's previous posts, please do so. Sorry you didn't like my comments to Jude, but otherwise I've participated in the conversation.

Quote:


So instead of a continued intelligent discussion on Kata and its transposition to MMA effectiveness you get comments like Zachs above. Who surely has reached the cornerstone of kata perfection.




Yep that's what I said, i'm perfect. Huh?


Anyway sorry for the thread drift i'll stick to the topic now.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/02/08 03:42 PM)

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#397283 - 06/02/08 03:42 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Matt, you are looking at kata training from a gendai or modern perspective. In okinawan karate training of kata techniques and principles in two man drills leaves the compliant realm quickly. Or at least that has been my experience.
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#397284 - 06/02/08 04:19 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
MattJ, compliancy and prearranged are not the same thing. I know plenty of two man boxing drills that are choreographed, actually all of the boxing drills I learned were prearranged. These same things practiced in shadowboxing meet the requirements for kata.

Just a look at what kata offers a new student should be all the proof anyone needs for its effectiveness in MMA. In the beginning its just a mere pattern to learn and practice the techniques of that style, and unless these techniques are catalogued and being practiced individually, then sometimes kata provides the only route to learning that style. Would everyone here agree that someone who knows nothing is better off in MMA than someone who practiced a kata which indeed are the techniques of that style?

On an intellectual level, kata encourages detailed analysis of combative situations and response application. Again, I fail to see how this is not effective for fighting. From my experience, spending more time on kata encourages constant visualization and perfection of techniques, increased stamina and respiratory rhythm patterns, balance and fluidity of execution. All of which I see as effective in the MMA setting.

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#397285 - 06/02/08 04:31 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

MattJ, compliancy and prearranged are not the same thing.




Didn't say they were. Although, feel free to explain what you mean.

Quote:

I know plenty of two man boxing drills that are choreographed, actually all of the boxing drills I learned were prearranged.




I'll take your word for it, although I haven't seen many boxing places that used choreographed drills to any extent. I am aware of "limited sparring", "active drills", and the like in boxing and even my BJJ training. I do not consider those to be anything like kata either.

Quote:

These same things practiced in shadowboxing meet the requirements for kata.




I disagree. Shadowboxing is not choreographed.
_________________________
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#397286 - 06/02/08 04:37 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Matt, the coreography in boxing is in its combinations. Much like in the karate I practice, although the goju flow drill camp may have a different perspective, one does not use the entire kata in order with which to fight. There are "combinations" used from kata. Kata and karate training is like good jazz music. There is pre defined notes to play, but to truly do it justice one must know how to improvise. There is a rhythm to fighting and karate and improvisation on a theme is critical to its application.
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#397287 - 06/02/08 04:50 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Ok here's where I don't get your argument, if you are doing drills with progressive resistance that are kata-based, about the only difference I see between this and MMA drills is that (usually though not always i'm sure) people training in the competitive MMA mindset will be going harder as a rule than those that aren't, and the fact that there are some tactics specific and common to MMA that are not covered in detail in TMA.




Hey zach,
There are a few points. I mentioned earlier that kata simply does not contain what is needed to be a successful UFC fighter. Examples off the top of my head include, round house kicks, footwork, head movement, a gaurd, take down defence to the level needed in UFC, Methods of standing once taken down, ground fighting. How can you develop drills for these things if they are not there?

You must, as Machida has done, look to other arts.

Two man drills may improve fighting ability, but i've only seen this done well when being applied with SD scenarios. e.g. (note E.G.) utilising punching chambering, using the movement as it is in the kata.

Those, for example, who say that they learn takedown defence from the sprawl if 'saifa' are deluding themselves IMO. You need the EXPERIENCE of specialist 'styles'. Karate is not a complete FIGHTING system.

Again this is not bashing kata as some (not you zach!) seem to be interpreting it.

Quote:

Other than that if you're (to take a generica example) learning to use Ogoshi and drilling it, then that's what you are doing, whatever the environment. You could argue that an MMA person or a Judoka or a wrestler would be doing it better but this wouldn't always be true, and I don't see the big distinction you are making between kata-based two man drills, and simply two man drills.




To some extent. Turn it round if a Judo guy training from the Judo methods he knew went straight into fight against an MMAist, would he likely pull of sucessful techniques? Likely not due to the factors which Judo does not deal with, e.g. he's going to eat punches, there's no gi etc etc. Can you see where I'm coming from?

No? Well atleast I'm heavier than you!
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#397288 - 06/02/08 04:55 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Matt, the coreography in boxing is in its combinations.




Fair enough, I wasn't thinking of pad drills and such.

Quote:

There is a rhythm to fighting and karate and improvisation on a theme is critical to its application.




I guess this is a point of difference. I strive to NOT have any rhythm in fighting, although I understand what you mean but improvising on a theme.

Quote:

Kata and karate training is like good jazz music. There is pre defined notes to play, but to truly do it justice one must know how to improvise.




Depends on what we call GOOD jazz, eh?

Buddy Rich or Charlie Parker is good stuff. Kenny G (and all lite-jazz) can kiss my ass.

I am a jazz drummer, BTW.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#397289 - 06/02/08 04:59 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Depends on what we call GOOD jazz, eh?

Buddy Rich or Charlie Parker is good stuff. Kenny G (and all lite-jazz) can kiss my ass.

I am a jazz drummer, BTW.




Then you must truly know what I mean when I talk about real karate and all of the other stuff. I might start calling everything else which isn't good karate lite-karate.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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