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#397450 - 06/10/08 05:45 PM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Marcel,

I do not wish to have a conversation with you. You are "not my friend."




Then stop asking me questions.




You are the elite genius, figure it out.




Figure what out? Why you ask me questions, yet don't want to have a conversation with me?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#397451 - 06/10/08 05:58 PM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
What does anyone here but medulanet think about the bunkai videos of seisan and sanseryu I posted from outube in the Aplications forum?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397452 - 06/10/08 07:32 PM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
The sanseiryu one was pretty cool, useable stuff, even if the demo is a bit wooden seeming.


Where is the Seisan one?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/10/08 07:33 PM)

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#397453 - 06/10/08 11:03 PM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: Zach_Zinn]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

The sanseiryu one was pretty cool, useable stuff, even if the demo is a bit wooden seeming.


Where is the Seisan one?




That would be in oldmans thread next to it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397454 - 06/11/08 04:14 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude,

Out of interest, what sort of history do you research?

You said "Some persons from more than likely the Mesopotamia area visited Okinawa a long time before the Napoleonic period.

I am speculating that is how the origins of ti began and if I am correct that might be one of the reasons why Medulanet with his wrestling background feels that wrestling co/existed in karate."

What evidence makes you believe this? Which persons from Mesopotamia (now Iraq) do you think visited Okinawa to pass on wrestling skills, when and why?

B.


Edited by Barad (06/11/08 04:25 AM)

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#397455 - 06/11/08 06:09 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Which persons from Mesopotamia (now Iraq) do you think visited Okinawa to pass on wrestling skills , when and why?

B.




pass on wrestling skills



Yes very good!! I love academic sense of humour.


So back to reality and practical matters.

Barad. I doubt I Do Not believe that the persons

(who more than likely came from the area of Mesopotamia)

landed on Okinawa purely to pass on wrestling skills to the then native inhabitants of Okinawa.

I have to make the doubt, do not somewhat clear otherwise it is picked up on .

They;

More than likely they were after something that was on Okinawa or on one of the surrounding islands and for some reason some might have ended up staying on Okinawa.



or

Were blown of course and ended up there?


Their war arts/ defence arts more than likely would have included weapons, striking and grappling(wrestling).

As regards the specifics as to who it was, why they did it, and the time in history I am afraid the evidence is still being debated.

But the evidence of the prescence of such people is there.
So do you think the research in to the origins of karate would sell in a book?

With at some stage the inclusion of Kata that might have included

weapon use
grappling
and striking perhaps?

And the dreaded G/F?

Jude



Edited by jude33 (06/11/08 06:40 AM)

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#397456 - 06/11/08 06:34 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude,

Who is it that you are referring to that has been debating this and what evidence is there for it?

Also, even if you personally doubt they were there just to teach fighting skills, who do these people who are debating the matter, (that you referred to) think landed from Mesopotamia on Okinawa? I have never seen anything on it (Iraqis landing on Okinawa hundreds of years ago) so I am curious as to what you have been researching and what are your sources.

B.


Edited by Barad (06/11/08 06:36 AM)

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#397457 - 06/11/08 06:51 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: medulanet]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:


..... But we all know that Funakoshi is the father of Japanese Shuri style karate just as Yamaguchi is the father of Japanese (Naha style karate) Goju. In that there is no flaw in my comparison. Do YOU find fault with that comparison?




Yamaguchi is not the father of Japanese Goju-ryu.
In Japan (Okinawa included), there are 2 big Goju-ryu organizations, part of JKF.
One is the JKGA (also known as Goju-kai, decsending from the organization of Gogen Yamaguchi) and on is the JKF Goju-kai (descending from Ujita/Kissaki/Uchiage/Yogi).

Gogen Yamaguchi claims he first learned Goju-ryu from an Okinawan gardner in the 1920ies. He learned about Chojun Miyagi at Ritsumeikan university and invites Miyagi over through Yitsuei Yogi an Okinwawn student of Miyagi, studying at that University. Later on through the years Ujita, Kissaki and Uchiage joined the Ritsumeikan club.
(before and during WWII).

In 1952 Yamaguchi created the Goju-kai.
In 1972 this organization was reestablished to crteate what is now called the JKF Goju-kai. In 1973, Yamaguchi was forced to resign fromn this organization. His main influence after Miyagi died was Meitoku Yagi of the Meibukan (Okinawan).

Within JKF Goju-kai, main infleunce (special advisor) were Eiichi Miyazato (Okinawan), Jitsuei Yogi (Okinawan), Kei Miyagi (Okinawan and son of founder). OGKK (Okinawa Goju-ryu Karate Kenkiykai) is part of JKF Goju-kai.
JKF Goju-kai keeps to the 12 kata Miyagi instructed.

Yanaguchi's Goju-kai added a Takiyoku series for beginners and has a Hakutsuru kata. But the 12 other kata come from Miyagi. The term Japanese Goju-ryu is not correct in a sense that not everybody, even most of the Japanese practitioners are not part of this organization, and do not practise the Hakutsuru form or the Takiyoku kata.

Another thing Yamaguchi added was free sparring, jyu kumite but Morio Higaonna will argue that the seniors on Okinawa practised iri kumi, also a free form of fighting.

The format of the kata practised within JKF Goju-kai varies from sub organization to sub-organization. I have come full circle in the execution of the kata, so that the details now presented as changes are already familiar to me from past experiences.

To me, the only difference in regard to training is that when training with University students in Japan focus is on sport. When training with seniors focus is on manifestation of oneselve, with focus on authentic use of techniques presented in kata.

For me it's all Japanese Goju or all Okinwan Goju, take your pick. There is no difference in essence, only in focus.There is only difference in execution, depending on public and perception, and it's not related to wether it has lineage to Yamaguchi or not.

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#397458 - 06/11/08 07:11 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude,
I have never seen anything on it ( Iraqis landing on Okinawa hundreds of years ago)





Wrong time period Barad. And an incorrect statement and understanding of what I wrote. Iraq as such came in to existance long after the event's I am refering to. The area would have been known as Mesopotamia .






Quote:



so I am curious as to what you have been researching and what are your sources.

B.




Barad with all due respect I think you need to go back in time and look at the history of Mesopotamia. As regards my scources well they vary. From Earth sciences to Anthropology
etc.

Not in the history of Okinawa books.

Jude.



Edited by jude33 (06/11/08 07:28 AM)

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#397459 - 06/11/08 07:35 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude,

If I am wrong to infer from your posts that a few hundred years ago is when these people travelled to Okinawa, please correct me on the time period when you think Mesopotamians actually landed on Okinawa.

I never made any claims to be doing research on this, you did. You clearly think these people, whooever they are, landed there sometime and your only doubts seem to centre on whether spreading fighting skills was the main aim of the trip to Okinawa or peripheral. However you are unwilling to back it up with evidence for some reason.

Getting defensive and asking about the Sahara (as your original unedited post did) is a diversion because you posted something that possibly is out of your imagination. If I am wrong about this then post some evidence to support your view. It is interesting and I would gladly be proved wrong.

You also said you "research history" but are not a history student and since you said it and I was also interested I was hoping you could explain this further. As it happens I do know a bit about the history of Mesopotamia so please point me in the right direction.

You are right, of course, that I should have referred to Mesopotamians, not Iraqis, although the name Iraq does come from Uruk, one of the ancient population centres of Mesopotamia. But you knew that surely what with your researching the earth sciences and archaeology of the area. Right?

Thanks,

B.


Edited by Barad (06/11/08 08:02 AM)

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