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#397270 - 06/02/08 11:23 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Just to clarify a few things on your post:
You use gloves for light sparring, but not for heavy sparring? Is this correct?





No it is incorrect. If you use gloves all the time you might reach that assumption. I train bag work/ maikwari bareknuckle just to repeat myself .
The place I train MMA we dont sparr stand up heavy if you read my earlier posts. Most have day jobs. They arent pro's.
So when we do sparr its light and I have to wear those silly little gloves that you more than likely wear. The ones where a person can get away with a lot of technical flaws that would show up in S/D.

If I want a full sparr boxing wise I would organise it myself or visit a boxing club and would have to wear gloves.

Can I ask you a question? What body weight are you?
My body weight is 109 kilos. Super heavy weight.
Quote:



Are the above drills the two examples of boxing drills from kata? Or Do you feel that all boxing is contained within kata? Do you feel you can learn the skills of boxing through kata?




Lovely question. Boxing is learned boxing. Kata is kata that can become two man drills. Two man drills should become a good method.
Quote:



I'm asking as I don't want to be putting words in your mouth!




Can I ask what body weight are you please ?
Quote:


Again similar questions to above, Do you feel that you can learn the skills of greco, or freestyle from kata?




Short answer no. Why? because I think the skills were lost.
And the skills wouldnt have been a complete learning curve anyway. Doesnt mean to say some werent there in the first place.
Quote:



You from UK? If you are then i'd say that in terms of wrestling, we may be behind some other nations, but if you look hard enough there are places around. I know its jacket orientated but Judo and sambo clubs are pretty common place and teach good wrestling skills and have been successfully transfered to MMA (Kayro & Fedor)
Quote:


Please tell me you dont realy think stand up judo (gi) is the place to learn stand up wrestling? If a person was to use Karyo's techniques then they would study and practice the techniques he uses. Sambo I havent trained so I cant comment.

Quote:



. Also there are native styles such as backhold and cornish wrestling (But i aint yet seen a Cornish wrestler in UFC, I'd love that).




Up north there is cumberland wrestling but not something I would study. No ground work.
Quote:



With the popularity of MMA most MMA clubs have an ever improving wrestling skill set which is specific to fighting, so may be (MAY BE) more useful than pure wrestling forms for a martial artist. There are plenty of places to learn to wrestle to a very good standard if that is what you want.




Ok well I am in the Preston/Lancs area often so if you have any names then please post them. Randy Couture is the person I would realy like to study grappling with direct or in directly so if there is anybody who has benefited from his teaching please put me in touch.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (06/02/08 11:51 AM)

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#397271 - 06/02/08 12:29 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude are you suggesting that kata would be a useful tool for boxers? How much of boxing is contained in kata?




I answered that one but
Quote:


Unless creative has a video of some one in the UK doing it live?

This is what I am refering to for others reading this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymEdv7jNSSg





Quote:



I'll leave others to comment on the other things you brought up






I find it interesting that the technical questions seem to be, as we say here swerved around eg not answered.

Creative you say your in the UK? and train MMA?
So can I ask who to the best of your knowledge has used the duckunder/ throw in MMA in the UK?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (06/02/08 12:32 PM)

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#397272 - 06/02/08 02:04 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Can I ask you a question? What body weight are you?
My body weight is 109 kilos. Super heavy weight.




Quote:


Can I ask what body weight are you please ?





Guys, you better answer his googling stuff-inspired questions, he weighs more than you. What does your weight have to do with this anyway Jude?

Watching this thread like a hawk now, I guess at least I have to credit you for making things interesting sometimes Jude33....lol

Quote:

I find it interesting that the technical questions seem to be, as we say here swerved around eg not answered





Alot of times I think people don't answer a question when they don't see it as being worth answering, and rather an attempt at posturing because you can't come up with any valid points....just a guess



Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/02/08 02:15 PM)

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#397273 - 06/02/08 02:04 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Creative, as I have said MANY times, things like wrestling skill cannot be learned from kata (solo performance of techniques). Just as fighting skill, strength development, explosive speed and power, etc. And it is for this very reason that the old school karate experts integrated the various supplementary exercises into preparation for and study of karate.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#397274 - 06/02/08 02:14 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
I tried to persuade myself not to engage in conversation with you, but did so against my better judgement. Your post does not make sense, it is incoherent and just look at it! Is it that difficult structure a post and to read a statement/question before responding to it? Will attempt to go through this, for some reason!?

Quote:


No it is incorrect. If you use gloves all the time you might reach that assumption. I train bag work/ maikwari bareknuckle just to repeat myself .
The place I train MMA we dont sparr stand up heavy if you read my earlier posts. Most have day jobs. They arent pro's.
So when we do sparr its light and I have to wear those silly little gloves that you more than likely wear. The ones where a person can get away with a lot of technical flaws that would show up in S/D.

If I want a full sparr boxing wise I would organise it myself or visit a boxing club and would have to wear gloves.




To me light training involves little contact. Saying heavy might have caused confusion. Increasing the intensity to medium-medium heavy contact is a vital part of MMA training.
Nothing to do with being a pro and no need to get injured in the process. You do not need to go to a boxing gym to train heavy, infact boxing gyms do not often spar at full power, but at a medium-medium heavy intensity same as what should be done in MMA.

Quote:

Can I ask you a question? What body weight are you?
My body weight is 109 kilos. Super heavy weight.





No. What will it bring to the discussion about kata being useful for UFC type fighting?

Quote:


Quote:

Are the above drills the two examples of boxing drills from kata? Or Do you feel that all boxing is contained within kata? Do you feel you can learn the skills of boxing through kata?




Lovely question. Boxing is learned boxing. Kata is kata that can become two man drills. Two man drills should become a good method.





Boxing is learned boxing yes. Then bam, you've lost me. If it is a lovely question please answer it.

Quote:

Quote:


Again similar questions to above, Do you feel that you can learn the skills of greco, or freestyle from kata?





Short answer no. Why? because I think the skills were lost.
And the skills wouldnt have been a complete learning curve anyway. Doesnt mean to say some werent there in the first place.





Your answer is No. First intelligent cohesive thing you've said here. Shame about the gibberish that followed.


Quote:


Please tell me you dont realy think stand up judo (gi) is the place to learn stand up wrestling? If a person was to use Karyo's techniques then they would study and practice the techniques he uses. Sambo I havent trained so I cant comment.





Why not?
It has been successfully integrated into MMA by many Judoka already? Got to get it from somewhere, why not choose from a MA where the skills have already been shown to be transferable?


Quote:


Up north there is cumberland wrestling but not something I would study. No ground work.





Better try it than try learn wrestling from karate/kata. Also many people who do wrestle have experience in multiple wrestling disciplines. You should give it a shot.


Quote:

Ok well I am in the Preston/Lancs area often so if you have any names then please post them. Randy Couture is the person I would realy like to study grappling with direct or in directly so if there is anybody who has benefited from his teaching please put me in touch.




I think Randy travels to Preston pretty regularly actually.

Quote:

Creative you say your in the UK? and train MMA?
So can I ask who to the best of your knowledge has used the duckunder/ throw in MMA in the UK?




Jude you found me out. I said I was from the UK in an attempt to add weight to my side of the argument. And I don't train MMA, you've clearly exposed me. Just as Kimo exposed that i've never done karate or been in a dojo.

Quote:

Quote:


I'm asking as I don't want to be putting words in your mouth!




Can I ask what body weight are you please ?




I do not want to answer as I fear you may again expose me for what I am, weightless.


says to self:
I will not take time replying to jude, I will not take time replying to jude, I will not take time replying to jude, I will not take time replying to jude.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397275 - 06/02/08 02:26 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:


Guys, you better answer his googling stuff-inspired questions, he weighs more than you. What does your weight have to do with this anyway Jude?

Alot of times I think people don't answer a question when they don't see it as being worth answering, and rather an attempt at posturing because you can't come up with any valid points....just a guess




Exactly. Glad it's not just me who thinks this Zach!

Med
Quote:

Creative, as I have said MANY times, things like wrestling skill cannot be learned from kata (solo performance of techniques). Just as fighting skill, strength development, explosive speed and power, etc. And it is for this very reason that the old school karate experts integrated the various supplementary exercises into preparation for and study of karate.




I think we all agree on this. I'm not talking just solo performance. I HAVE said this before, most people have been quite specific in differentiating between kata performance and kata training.

Kata training is not a useful tool for gaining skills in wrestling (above SD level for sure) or boxing (above over simplifies comparisons like kata contains punching - boxing contains punching) or MMA.


AGAIN i'm not saying that people can't benifit from and enjoy kata training. But it will never cut it as a training tool for this type of fighting - which is what many people have been claiming.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397276 - 06/02/08 02:49 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
So if you are not talking about just solo performance are you also including resistive two man drills used to train application of kata technique and principles?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#397277 - 06/02/08 03:02 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:


Guys, you better answer his googling stuff-inspired questions, he weighs more than you. What does your weight have to do with this anyway Jude?

Alot of times I think people don't answer a question when they don't see it as being worth answering, and rather an attempt at posturing because you can't come up with any valid points....just a guess




Exactly. Glad it's not just me who thinks this Zach!

Med
Quote:

Creative, as I have said MANY times, things like wrestling skill cannot be learned from kata (solo performance of techniques). Just as fighting skill, strength development, explosive speed and power, etc. And it is for this very reason that the old school karate experts integrated the various supplementary exercises into preparation for and study of karate.




I think we all agree on this. I'm not talking just solo performance. I HAVE said this before, most people have been quite specific in differentiating between kata performance and kata training.

Kata training is not a useful tool for gaining skills in wrestling (above SD level for sure) or boxing (above over simplifies comparisons like kata contains punching - boxing contains punching) or MMA.


AGAIN i'm not saying that people can't benifit from and enjoy kata training. But it will never cut it as a training tool for this type of fighting - which is what many people have been claiming.




Ok here's where I don't get your argument, if you are doing drills with progressive resistance that are kata-based, about the only difference I see between this and MMA drills is that (usually though not always i'm sure) people training in the competitive MMA mindset will be going harder as a rule than those that aren't, and the fact that there are some tactics specific and common to MMA that are not covered in detail in TMA.

Other than that if you're (to take a generica example) learning to use Ogoshi and drilling it, then that's what you are doing, whatever the environment. You could argue that an MMA person or a Judoka or a wrestler would be doing it better but this wouldn't always be true, and I don't see the big distinction you are making between kata-based two man drills, and simply two man drills.

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#397278 - 06/02/08 03:08 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

So if you are not talking about just solo performance are you also including resistive two man drills used to train application of kata technique and principles?




But now you're talking about two different things, Marcel. Resistive two-man training is not kata. Even two-man kata is not resistive. It's all pre-arranged.

Creative was talking about kata.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#397279 - 06/02/08 03:11 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

Can I ask you a question? What body weight are you?
My body weight is 109 kilos. Super heavy weight.




Quote:


Can I ask what body weight are you please ?





Guys, you better answer his googling stuff-inspired questions, he weighs more than you. What does your weight have to do with this anyway Jude?

Watching this thread like a hawk now, I guess at least I have to credit you for making things interesting sometimes Jude33....lol

Quote:

I find it interesting that the technical questions seem to be, as we say here swerved around eg not answered





Alot of times I think people don't answer a question when they don't see it as being worth answering, and rather an attempt at posturing because you can't come up with any valid points....just a guess






Zach, dont you think it would be easier to prove the points invalid if they were? I dont see anyone doing that with jude at this point.

And your just as bad, everytime jude tries to keep conversation technical you come in with condescending remarks. A true martial artist, always willing to learn right?

Did anyone happen to see Chuck Lidell performing/testing Sanchin kata in his karate class? , I wonder how that helped his conditioning. The video he was well into his teen years and he started at 12, and kata is just as prevalent in koeikan as it is in other karate styles. I know how effective Sanchin is, but im sure creative will doubt its UFC effectiveness.

BTW... everyone bitching about kata, dont you think you should learn what kata is first? The people who gave us karate kata have told us what it takes to make it useful, how many people here honestly have done just that? Unless you do, your opinions are completely irrelevant, like the people who go on a diet but dont follow the program, the diet is not what failed. Almost everything in life is kata. Muay Thai, Boxing, Savate, Wrestling, doing the dishes, washing your hair, breathing, putting your shoes on, brushing the dog, mopping the floor. You do sprawl drills? You shadowbox? Then you do kata. You practice combinations? Do you visualize? You do kata. Do two man drills? Technique isolation? You do kata. Ive said it before, everyone is getting hung up on a term used to describe something, in doing so you come to conclusions based on a definition youve given that term, rather than real long hard experience.

What better way to settle something like this than a true old fashioned brawl. Corner one we have the kata guy, corner two we have the guy who thinks he knows every martial art and everything that is truly effective about those martial arts(IE: the fa.com forum poster!)

That was a joke, but im sure some high strung warrior is going to be upset. I really like this board, but im sure on one here is a master of one single martial art, let alone a specific training method of a martial art. Im sure most people here like myself are still students, but most likely students who have had to sift through a bunch of BS in the TMA world to continue to be a student. So instead of a continued intelligent discussion on Kata and its transposition to MMA effectiveness you get comments like Zachs above. Who surely has reached the cornerstone of kata perfection. And its a known fact, weight has ALOT to do with what is effective and what isnt.

Ones mans trash in another mans treasure.

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