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#397340 - 06/05/08 01:55 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

A strongly held view JKogas - and a popular one nowadays.



I would love you to try 40 seiyuchin kata, done full power, in a row. It is the closest I've come to simulating the fatigue of combat without a partner or a bag. The low stances are the equivalent of extra load - the tension and dynamic movement tax your body and you are forced past your VO2 max. As a conditioning/fitness tool it is exceptional. .





I would love you to try 40 seiyuchin kata, done full power, in a row. It is the closest I've come to simulating the fatigue of combat without a partner or a bag


The underlined part is what seems to imply that kata training is somehow more effective for combat conditioning than anything else. And that is simply not true not because it seems untrue but because science proves it is untrue.
I may have taken his post slightly out of ocntext though.


Edited by Stormdragon (06/05/08 01:55 AM)
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#397341 - 06/05/08 02:58 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
How does science prove his statement untrue?

Quote:

I would love you to try 40 seiyuchin kata, done full power, in a row. It is the closest I've come to simulating the fatigue of combat without a partner or a bag. The low stances are the equivalent of extra load - the tension and dynamic movement tax your body and you are forced past your VO2 max. As a conditioning/fitness tool it is exceptional.




He didn't say it was more effective or better. It's just a statement on how kata training can be good for conditioning.
I honestly don't think I could do 40 seiunchin kata at full power in a row.
Yes, there are different was to get there,but dang,40!

I guess you'd have to know how to do seiunchin to understand.
I think you took it out of context and misread it altogether.

Man, we are way off topic now,lol. threads always tend to take on a personality of their own.

Storm,

Do you currently practice any kata? How do you use them and what do you believe they are for?
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#397342 - 06/05/08 03:12 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stormdragon]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I would love you to try 40 seiyuchin kata, done full power, in a row. It is the closest I've come to simulating the fatigue of combat without a partner or a bag


The underlined part is what seems to imply that kata training is somehow more effective for combat conditioning than anything else.




Eh? I was saying that doing 40 kata in a row is good conditioning - I never suggested it was better than anything else. If you want to do running etc. - go for it.

I'd suggest shuttle runs as a good means of building anaerobic fitness (which you need in fighting). But bear in mind that I once trained shuttle runs with a rugby club and despite never having done them, I was as fit as they were just from doing repetitive kata...

As far as running etc. - there are sometimes reasons why they are not possible for a particular period due to injury etc. But I don't need to get into that. My point was that someone might do it instead of running perhaps out of preference.

Why would they prefer it? They might do so because the low stances, twists and turns all condition the joints while building the supporting muscles and building the anaerobic fitness of shuttle runs. On the other hand you could do myriad other activities instead. I never said you couldn't or shouldn't.

Quote:

And that is simply not true not because it seems untrue but because science proves it is untrue.




Eh? I'd love to see the "science".


JKogas - your view that kata is something that one should do only if one has unlimited time is just another way of saying that kata is useless as a fitness/conditioning tool (or is less effective than every other fitness/conditioning tool used in MMA). I don't subscribe to this view, nor is there, in my view, any evidence, scientific or otherwise to back that up. The fact that MMA fighters don't use kata as a fitness/conditioning tool is irrelevant to the argument about whether it can be used for this purpose. After all, an MMA fighter who is also a rock-climber might do rock-climbing to build his fitness. Again, he'd better do something else as well, but I wouldn't discount the possibility that he could use it in his preparation. So if a person from a karate background chose to incorporate some physically demanding kata into his conditioning/fitness regimen, I wouldn't find this as absurd as you do. Again, I never said that this was all he needed to do.

I'm with Brian - I wouldn't rely on the kata as my sole or principal method of preparation, no more than I would base MMA preparation solely on the speedball or skipping or running. Your argument that kata alone would make me a "straw man" in MMA is a truism. It's also a "straw man" of an argument since it's not one I've tried to advance.
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#397343 - 06/05/08 03:29 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Brian I have done 40, full power, seiunchin in a row (last time would have been in 1997). It damn near killed me and my fellow students. One of the hardest workouts we ever did.

At the time we were also doing morning beach runs (about 30 to 40 min on soft sand!) twice per week, so I'm not comparing the kata practice to just any old thing.

By contrast, I've done over 300 Heian Shodan in a row and this wasn't nearly as bad (last time would have been in about 1989) - so which kata you do has a huge impact. It's the low stances and the dynamic changes that make seiunchin so difficult.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (06/05/08 03:31 AM)
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#397344 - 06/05/08 03:31 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Brian, I think you're right I did misread it. I just assumed he meant that doing 40 kata or something is the best way to become conditioned for combat which isn't true. Exercise is exercise, the important thing is that there is enough intensity and the entire system is conditioned which can be done many ways other than kata and equally well. Science proves this because the bodies force and oxygen input/co2 output, vo2 max, etc. can be measured and somehow better through kata, though the mind plays more of a roll in kata usually. But physically it doesn't matter as long as the body is being conditioned effectively.
I trained in ITF TKD for around 3.5 years and learned over a dozen hyungs and some Taegueks. Then I practiced Nick Cerio's kenpo for awhile and learned the first 2 blocking forms and some pinans. I used to practice Fukyugata 1 and 2, and Naihanchi shodan. I practiced a few of these, my favorites, dozens of tiems a day and figured out a number of applications. Then I researched other possible applications from Iain Abernethy's site and books, and various other sources. I was really into kata for awhile. Not so much now but I still remember a lot of what I learned and the concepts.
One more thing o nthe science of conditioning part-a muscle can only contract, no matter if it's through kata or push ups. Doesn't matter. The fact is a muscle can only contract or relax, and your lungs can only take in 02 or expel c02. Whether this happens by kata or not is irrelevant as logn as it happens at the same intensity for the same amount of time. You stated that kata is no better conditioning and if that statement is indeed true then science would back it up.
_________________________
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#397345 - 06/05/08 07:40 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stormdragon]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Guys, I've spoken my piece on this and you all know where I stand. You're welcome to research this out for yourselves, as you already probably have or should be, to form your own opinions.

I'm always learning something new. You may not think so, but I'm always open minded. However I barely have enough time in my day (because of work, family, travel between two cities every other day, etc) to even THINK about adding kata into my routine.

For my conditioning, I get an hour (or more) in the gym on the days between my training sessions. So it looks something like this:

Monday:
*Work until 5pm, come home, tend to family needs.
*Hit the gym (circuit training and cardio)
*Come home and work until bed time.

Tuesday:
*Work all day
*Training (two hours of MMA)

Wednesday:
*Repeat Monday's routine

Thursday:
*Work all day
*Training (two hours of submission wrestling)

Friday:
*Repeat Wednesday's routine (see Monday's routine)

Saturday:
*Training (open session, two hours)
*Attend to aging parents for the weekend assist them with various details and to spend time with family
*R&R and any other recreational activities that I only have time to squeeze in (on the weekends)

Basically what that means is, where in the name of HELL would I manage to squeeze in kata? Maybe I could sleep less, (yeah, right, sure), but I have discovered that it's senseless to be overly fanatical about training if you aren't a professional fighter (although some would say my routine is already such).

Personally speaking, all of the things that I already do are far and away better for my skills development or physical conditioning than doing a Goddamn kata until I'm blue in the face! But that's just me. Knock yourselves out.

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#397346 - 06/05/08 10:43 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
dandjurdjevic
Quote:

But the debate needs to be balanced so that kata isn't given more unfair "bashing". People like me have been quiet for too long, letting the argument against kata go to an absolutist extreme.




I don't believe that it has been given too much of an UNFAIR bashing here. If anything I'd say it is being given unfair credit. For example being a useful tool for an MMA fighter.

Quote:

The question is, can kata be used as an adjunct to training for combat, and if so, to what purpose? It doesn't look like fighting, but then again, neither does skipping or, as we have noted, the speedball... I would love you to try 40 seiyuchin kata, done full power, in a row. It is the closest I've come to simulating the fatigue of combat without a partner or a bag. The low stances are the equivalent of extra load - the tension and dynamic movement tax your body and you are forced past your VO2 max. As a conditioning/fitness tool it is exceptional.




With all due respect, you are miles off base here. No way is kata an EXCEPTIONAL conditioning/fitness tool for anything but....being able to perform more kata.

I'm not saying that doing the kata (or any kata) as you described isn't going to tire you out, but it is in no way representative of what you'll experience as a mma fighter (other than a generic feeling of fatigue).

An example of this is seiyunchin takes (for arguments sake) 2 minutes to complete. So you are talking about exercising for 1hr 20 minutes. This simply is not representative of the 15 minutes WITH rest intervals experienced by MMA fighters. For this reason alone, it is not a good conditioning tool for MMA fighters. To credit it as simply UNTRUE.

I understand you are suggesting this COULD be used. But anything COULD be used. When the evidence is so stacked against its method (for the above mentioned use), and indeed sport science has shown that training should be specific to performance, i do not think that dismissing katas use is "unfair bashing".

It is a dated training method (for fitness and conditioning for fighting) and should be left in the same place as the wax on wax off and painting the fence training.

Storm
Quote:

One more thing o nthe science of conditioning part-a muscle can only contract, no matter if it's through kata or push ups. Doesn't matter. The fact is a muscle can only contract or relax, and your lungs can only take in 02 or expel c02. Whether this happens by kata or not is irrelevant as logn as it happens at the same intensity for the same amount of time. You stated that kata is no better conditioning and if that statement is indeed true then science would back it up.




I'm not sure i completely understand what you've written here but...

It is not a matter of muscles either contract or relax. Different movements require different kind of contractions.
If this was the case, and it did not matter if contraction occurred through kata or push up, then all training would be transferable, but it is not.
One of the key things that you hit on was "at the same intensity" - training must be specific, and there is more to specificity than training at the same intensity.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397347 - 06/05/08 11:06 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
JKogas,
Quote:

where in the name of HELL would I manage to squeeze in kata?




You do nothing on sunday for a start.....rest days are for the weak....lazy I call it
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397348 - 06/05/08 11:11 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
All I can say creative, is that seiyunchin practice is highly anaerobic. The fact that I kept it up for 1 1/2 hours was indicative of my anaerobic fitness at the time. That's the kind of fitness you need in general terms for combat. If you are training for rounds in a sport, your needs might be slightly different - But I was just making the point that kata needn't be woosy. You make it sound like light jogging. It's hard work.

As to the "dated" comment - you're entitled to your view.
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#397349 - 06/05/08 11:22 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

But I was just making the point that kata needn't be woosy. You make it sound like light jogging. It's hard work.




I did not intend to make it sound like light jogging or 'easy training', I know from experince it can be physically demanding. Just pointing out that it is not representative to mma fighting and not physically demanding in the way MMA fighting is.

Quote:

As to the "dated" comment - you're entitled to your view.




Not just my view, but from my understanding, the view of sports science.

Again not saying kata training is useless altogether. BUT it is not useful for MMA fighting.


Edited by creative (06/05/08 11:23 AM)
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