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#397120 - 05/27/08 01:56 AM Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma?
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Do you believe Machida's success in mma is due to his karate training? Kata?

He is the first mma fighter I have seen doing kata during the pre-fight promotionals.

During his fight with Tito Ortiz Joe Rogan made several comments regarding the high level of karate that Machida has accomplished and he attributed that to his striking and elusiveness.

http://www.mmascraps.com/

Scroll down for the fight.

Machida vs. Franklin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuyDlSujlic

Machida vs. Bonnar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8zTpAFFsQQ&feature=related

Machida vs. McDonald

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvAUOzRz_DE&feature=related

There are others too...

Machida karate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nqbAfzrg-E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2vOxjGeRwM&feature=related


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#397121 - 05/27/08 02:17 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Do you believe Machida's success in mma is due to his karate training? Kata?





Well karate is a holistic training method, so if the question is whether part of his fighting prowess revolves around performance of solo routines i'd have to say no.

However if you mean depth of understanding and usage that can come with karate training, which can be kata-driven, then i'd say sure. A whole lot of fighters got their start for instance in Kyokushin, however it seems to be the popular thing today for people to minimize the effect this training has had on their MMA careers, or maybe it's just the fans that do that, I don't know.

There actually have been Karate/MMA crossover people here and there as long as I remember in MMA (look up Joe Pomfret - a Uechi Ryu and BJJ guy for one random, not so well known old school example), but as I said people seem to like to minimize the effect of Karate training in such an environment, whether justified or not.

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#397122 - 05/27/08 02:36 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Well karate is a holistic training method, so if the question is whether part of his fighting prowess revolves around performance of solo routines i'd have to say no.




Do you mean things like shadow boxing or drilling techniques don't help improve fighting ability? Oh no, its kata which you don't believe helps improve fighting ability. So then why practice kata at all if not to improve fighting ability?
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#397123 - 05/27/08 02:57 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Well karate is a holistic training method, so if the question is whether part of his fighting prowess revolves around performance of solo routines i'd have to say no.




Do you mean things like shadow boxing or drilling techniques don't help improve fighting ability? Oh no, its kata which you don't believe helps improve fighting ability. So then why practice kata at all if not to improve fighting ability?





Geez, don't even know why I bother responding to you half the time, since you seem to magically know my thoughts on every subject before I even post them!!!

But...here goes:

I mean that in isolation simply practicing kata as purely solo routine doesn't do much for fighting ability. Nor do I think it was ever intended to be used in isolation in this way. It is part of training, but certainly not the entire spectrum of what training a kata means.

Are you actually suggesting it is?

If we use the common textbook analogy, just reading you textbook gives you nothing but rote memorization, etc.....discussing and using what you've learned gives what you read alot more depth.

Anyway I thought I explained it pretty well above, so what exactly are you taking issue with?

P.S. And maybe answer BrianS's question before laying into me?

P.S.S. Calm down.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 03:07 AM)

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#397124 - 05/27/08 03:35 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually there was no mention of isolation, simply the practice of solo routines being a source of part of Machida's fighting prowess. So, if we want to add the qualifier "in isolation" then that changes things, now doesn't it? Now, kata trained for combat involves both the practice of two man drills and solo drills ranging from the entire kata trained at different speeds and tempos to a single movement or a portion of a single movement trained to respond to an opponent's attack. I actually do believe that such training of kata as solo drills can improve fighting prowess. However, I would not refer to it as performance.

To answer Brian's question, yes I do believe that Lyoto's karate training has helped bring him success in MMA. Mainly because he acknowledges utilizing his karate training in his MMA fighting and I have no reason to disbelieve him.
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#397125 - 05/27/08 08:14 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

So then why practice kata at all if not to improve fighting ability?




I've been asking THAT question for years.

Two things; 1) We don't know if he practices kata. 2) If he does, imagine how good he'd have been if he hadn't.


-John

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#397126 - 05/27/08 09:51 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
100% Yes.

He utilizes the basic trip that you can see done in almost every good shotokan kumite. He also makes great use of straight counter punches which are easily distinguishable as a straight karate punch or lunge punch, not as easily mistaken for a boxing cross or jab like alot of karate fighters throw. Other than a few kicks here and there, one on Rich Franklin that was a classic karate front kick, this seems to make up for the bulk of his attacking techniques.

I can only truly attest to katas effectiveness based on what its done for me. Since ive only seen him do it as much as everyone else, but some of what he does IMO can be seen in Kata. One part caught my attention that seems notable was when Rogan pointed out how good he was at spinning when tito grabbed him, watching it seems like the turns in Kata; could have developed this ability of his. His hands almost always seemed to go into an opening kusanku type movement when on defense. And on the inside he uses both arms in alot of kata like positions that alot of other fighters dont seem to do.

His footwork and main attacking techniques are karate, his coordination with using his stance,footwork, upperbody and lowerbody techniques together are karate, and IMO were most likely developed through kata. He feints alot, and one time he brought his foot up exactly like Tekki/Naihanchi kata. Against BJ Penn he pulled Penns left arm with his right while pushing him down with his own left, this was a very Tekki esque technique. He did the same thing without the pulling hand against Veron White.

All in all his delivery system is very Karate. Even some of the postures he takes when punching downed opponents are identical to some postures in karate & kata. And, he trains in Karate and BJJ, not boxing or muay thai. So we really cant say his karate is ineffective, its what he knows, so anything he does can be attributed to that. Would this be different if it was a boxer? I dont think anyone would talk about it, they just assume if he wins it is, if he doesnt then hes just not good. With karate it always seems to be, is he really using karate? If he wins it must be something else, if he loses karate is ineffective. Do you ever see shadowboxing arguments? How about speed bag by itself wont make you a good fighter, but... Why is everything always taken out of context when trying to make a point? Ive only been here a month or so and can already tell everyone knows what Karate and its training methods are and/or are not, so why does everyone patronize each other and argue off pointless semantics, insecure maybe?

I wonder how much effect Machida will have on Karate & MMA seeing as how strongly he embraces it.

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#397127 - 05/27/08 10:10 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Seiken]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
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#397128 - 05/27/08 10:40 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Actually Kata can be very benifical to fighting, if you are doing the right Kata, and you understand what the Kata is training.

Problem is with so much of TMA that it has gotten watered down, function and purpose has been lost and people just go through the motions and not understanding the purpose of what they are doing.

Truth is Kata covers so many different things, power, breathing, focus, stancing, movement, technique etc all of which are directly applicable to fighting. But you have to do it right, and you have to understand what/why you are doing at much of that info is not taught or has been lost.
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#397129 - 05/27/08 10:42 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Seiken]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Would this be different if it was a boxer? I dont think anyone would talk about it, they just assume if he wins it is, if he doesnt then hes just not good. With karate it always seems to be, is he really using karate? If he wins it must be something else, if he loses karate is ineffective.




It is different for a few reasons IMO.

Firstly Boxing has been proven over and over to be an effective tool for MMA. That is why so many MMAist use it. Same as Thai boxing, BJJ.
Machida is the only person i can think of who uses what looks like karate in MMA.

Secondly, for the most part, boxing is boxing. There are different styles of boxing, but the training (in my experience) is pretty similar. Plus the styles are becoming more similar with the advent of amateur boxing and increases in boxing rules. Karate on the other hand is hugely diverse, with (for arguments sake)one shotokan school being almost unrecognisable from another.

For these reasons IMO if Machida wins it only really supports 'his karate' and not 'Karate' as a useful tool for mma.


Quote:

Do you ever see shadowboxing arguments? How about speed bag by itself wont make you a good fighter, but... Why is everything always taken out of context when trying to make a point? Ive only been here a month or so and can already tell everyone knows what Karate and its training methods are and/or are not, so why does everyone patronize each other and argue off pointless semantics, insecure maybe?




I think the reason there are not shadow boxing arguments is that people don't say "shadow boxing is the heart of boxing". Also there are clear differences between shadow boxing and kata performance.
Also the reasons for shadow boxing are clear. The reason for doing kata are not. (An individual may have a clear reason for doing it, but the actual purpose of kata is not clear).

Quote:

I wonder how much effect Machida will have on Karate & MMA seeing as how strongly he embraces it.




I'm hoping a positive effect on both. Think it could open some peoples eyes from both karate and MMA circles.


Edited by creative (05/27/08 10:43 AM)
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