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#397250 - 05/31/08 01:04 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

It might be more of a question about getting Motobu or any other karate fighter in such a disadvantageous position so that such submissions can be applied. Of course Kyan fought a judo man and he was unable to get a submission on him. So are you saying that a karateman will always be at a disadvantage versus a grappler?





Sorry, I thought i have made my position clear. A karateman, Motobukaka, Funakoshi, Machida, or any of the dead masters will be at a distinct disadvantage in an mma setting. If those or any others strictly used kata or karate to train for an mma fight they would not fare well in my opinion. Karate is not a well rounded art. Quit pretending it is. It's not because of any watering down or non pure styles either.


Quote:

As far as fights not going to a decision it is about the intent of okinawan karate. In fact, this is one of the main aspects of it that seperates the modern sport karate styles from the classical or koryu ones. The intent is to go for the "kill" so to speak from jump. Once you engage with your opponent you don't stop until someone cannot continue, either him or you. Think of it like this. If you had an opportunity to fight the man who killed your best friend in the cage, would you try to win on points by using octagon control or would you go out there to try to KO him. In okinawan karate you try to KO every opponent in every engagement.




You are right. A good karateka would kill people in an mma setting.
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#397251 - 05/31/08 01:40 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Karate is not a well rounded art. Quit pretending it is. It's not because of any watering down or non pure styles either.




Do you mean YOUR karate is not a well rounded art?


Quote:

You are right. A good karateka would kill people in an mma setting.




Do you feign stupidity or can you just not help it?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#397252 - 05/31/08 03:01 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Med -

Quote:

Do you feign stupidity or can you just not help it?




Well, historically speaking, Brian's argument is much less stupid than yours is. There is very little evidence to support the conclusion that karate was meant to be an all-inclusive system. The vast majority of pre-UFC karate practices bear this out. Your vaunted system included.

I don't see this as a flaw of karate - it is how it was designed. There is strong evidence to support the fact that many of the old masters cross-trained, so there is no need to look at the current cross-training model and see anything inferior. You don't see wrestlers complaining about boxing not having takedowns. Different systems with different objectives.
_________________________
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#397253 - 05/31/08 03:13 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Med -

Quote:

Do you feign stupidity or can you just not help it?




Well, historically speaking, Brian's argument is much less stupid than yours is. There is very little evidence to support the conclusion that karate was meant to be an all-inclusive system. The vast majority of pre-UFC karate practices bear this out. Your vaunted system included.

I don't see this as a flaw of karate - it is how it was designed. There is strong evidence to support the fact that many of the old masters cross-trained, so there is no need to look at the current cross-training model and see anything inferior. You don't see wrestlers complaining about boxing not having takedowns. Different systems with different objectives.




When referring to Brian's stupidity I am not referring to his arguments. He simply states what is obvious to most and that requires little thought. It is easy to take the safe route. In fact, that is a way to hide if one truly knows anything beyond the most basic and rudimentary levels of the subject being discussed. So if you believe that Brian's post contain more advanced knowledge and insight on the practice of karate than mine, so be it. Please, utilize the knowledge contained in his posts to the fullest and don't give mine a second thought.
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#397254 - 06/01/08 10:05 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

As far as my limited teeny bit of Judo crosstraining knows, yeah I think that's a good respresentation.




Then i'd say it's use is at best minimal. Would it help you become a UFC fighter, realistically, no.

Quote:

Did you guys do uchi-komi? That's not much different from the way i've been taught to train some Karate techniques. Obviously the presentation of Judo kata is often overly formal, but the practice of it also teaches you alot I'd imagine. I don't know whether practicing Seionage with a partner is consdiered "kata" or not by most Kodokan Judo guys, but I know it is in some styles of Jujutsu.




Okay, I don't know the terminology 'uchi-komi'. The first result i got for it on google was

http://www.judoinfo.com/uchikomi.htm

As i said my experience was that in judo importance is not placed on kata as it is in karate. It could be argued that Judo with it's competitive nature has seen that kata has minimal impact on improving thier judo so have moved away from it.
I don't really want to argue too far down this road. As i've said I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a 'Judoka'.

Quote:


That goes for anything, not just Karate or Kata, way to be general about being general lol!




Fair point. I think you know what i'm getting at though.

Quote:

No, i'd imagine training for a UFC fight requires training for a fight




According to many who are commenting, training kata is training to fight, which equates kata as a useful tool for MMA. I disagree with that assertion.

Quote:

however you could practice plenty of the techniques in Karate and Judo kata (and guess what people do) in a 'live' environment with a training partner such as is done in a wide variety of arts.




Good for them. I think they will get the most out of their kata training. These guys will not be successful UFC fighters though. (unless they are also training elsewhere!)

Quote:

I do think there is value in a holistic sense of practicing the solo routines but incrementally if your goal is purely fighting then it's the paired drills and "live" work that would matter i'd think.




If you want to fight then drills and live work are essential. Where are you going to get these drills from? Kata? Drills for passing gaurd? drills for takedown defences against a wrestler? Footwork? Where to put your hands in your gaurd? Head movement? etc etc Can you get this from the (for arguments sake) 15 movements of a kata?

Skill gains for UFC fighting would be made would be due to live training irrespective of the kata training.

Quote:

On the other hand, I find it amusing the way people dismiss "kata" as if the term can only imply some guy standing on the beach meditatviely doing a solo form.

I also find it odd that people are having such a hard time believing that Machida's Karate training could have had an effect on his fighting style.




I don't think anyone has mentioned that kata only implies someone performing a kata. I think people were quite specific when using 'kata performance' and 'kata training' knowing that karateka practice kata so differently. A more apt statement MIGHT be:

"I find it amusing the way karate ka think of the term "kata" as if the term can only imply some guy standing on the beach meditatviely doing a solo form.

Also i dont think that people have dismissed all his karate training.
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#397255 - 06/01/08 10:40 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Meaning that there are Kata that focus on other parts of development which are not fight specific but play a role in training and ultimately a role in fighting.

The same way flipping a tractor tire over and over is not a fighting drill, but the results ultimately help your conditioning, and thus your fighting.




That sounds reasonable. What, for example, are the focus of these kata? Could you give an example?
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#397256 - 06/01/08 11:33 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

I don't buy the whole sport vs sd thing. Either you can stop someone from effectively attacking you and attack them or you cannot. Motobu was able to utilize his karate in a "sport" environment against a pro boxer. I guess no one told him karate is not effective if used in this way.




What! Where to start.

It surely depends on the nature of the sport. You see no difference between Olympic tae kwon do and SD? Don't buy in to that?

SD training tends to focus on common assaults and how to deal with and avoid them.

MMA as a sport deals with dual fighting at all ranges, therefore self-defence skills are a by-product of the training. I don't see that a by product of self defence training is MMA sport fighting ability.

Yes Motobu beat a boxer, under what rules? Who was this boxer? How did he win?

Might it be considered as clutching at straws if the examples you use to support argument to be from the early 1900's in some obscure event?
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"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397257 - 06/01/08 11:38 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

When referring to Brian's stupidity I am not referring to his arguments. He simply states what is obvious to most and that requires little thought. It is easy to take the safe route. In fact, that is a way to hide if one truly knows anything beyond the most basic and rudimentary levels of the subject being discussed. So if you believe that Brian's post contain more advanced knowledge and insight on the practice of karate than mine, so be it. Please, utilize the knowledge contained in his posts to the fullest and don't give mine a second thought.




Lol. He states the obvious which requires little thought - yet you still manage to disagree with him!

Appears the obvious aint so obvious around here.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397258 - 06/01/08 01:03 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Lol. He states the obvious which requires little thought - yet you still manage to disagree with him!

Appears the obvious aint so obvious around here.




Can I make a suggestion. Make a list of the techniques that you personaly use and drill as regards to strikes and defence against strikes in MMA. After that is completed then it could be seen where karate/ kata techique are used and indeed could be used in MMA striking because lets be honest the majority of MMA striking is basic .
Even with gloves.
Jude


Edited by jude33 (06/01/08 01:15 PM)

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#397259 - 06/01/08 01:12 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



don't see wrestlers complaining about boxing not having takedowns.




Speaking of boxing just to keep with the flow and not hijacking the thread.

Matt, I noticed the question went unanswered? Seems usual when technical questions are asked such as what did Mike tyson use as a counter to the jab.?

The slip and over hand right is one just to begin with.

Is that technique used in MMA?

Is that technique in karate kata? Is it in the original or toon ryu version/ variation of Jion? and which other kata?

Jude

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