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#397240 - 05/30/08 06:32 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
BTW, I'm not rubbishing all kata based training. Just questioning the mass varieties of functions it has been given and continues to be given. Such as being used as training for a UFC fight.


Edited by creative (05/30/08 06:34 PM)
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#397241 - 05/30/08 06:49 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Just questioning the mass varieties of functions it has been given and continues to be given. Such as being used as training for a UFC fight.





I will grant you I have seen a lot of uses thrown about for Kata, and I have seen a lot of bad Kata.

Maybe I live in a bubble, but the second you remove fighting application from your training, well you have lost me, that's the whole point.

In terms of UFC or MMA fighting, of course it applies and can be an excellent training tool. Even if it's a sport, it's a fighting sport so while it may exclude a lot of what Katas teach, it also includes alot of what Kata teaches.
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#397242 - 05/30/08 06:52 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

BTW, I'm not rubbishing all kata based training. Just questioning the mass varieties of functions it has been given and continues to be given. Such as being used as training for a UFC fight.




Again i'll ask, how do you view Judo kata in this regard? Is it Kata training as a whole you are rejecting or just the usefulness of the solo aspect?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/30/08 06:55 PM)

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#397243 - 05/30/08 07:28 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Again i'll ask, how do you view Judo kata in this regard? Is it Kata training as a whole you are rejecting or just the usefulness of the solo aspect?




I do not have experience of Judo kata. The Judo clubs that i've trained with (for only relatively short periods at a time) appeared not to show any emphisis on kata as in karate. Is this the norm?
Is this a good representation of Judo kata:?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VVHapcWbhAE


Also I've clearly stated i've not rejected the usefulness of kata training. I don't see that kata is useful for UFC fights as has been suggested. I've also pointed out that the reason/function for karate kata in not known and varies dramatically between styles, within style, between individuals, perhaps even within individuals!

Do you think, like has been suggested, that Kata (just performance and complete training) is a useful method for training for a UFC fight?
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#397244 - 05/30/08 07:45 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

I will grant you I have seen a lot of uses thrown about for Kata, and I have seen a lot of bad Kata.

Maybe I live in a bubble, but the second you remove fighting application from your training, well you have lost me, that's the whole point.




If you are training to become a better fighter than yes. I've never said otherwise. You did previously mention:

Quote:

Not that every Kata is a fighting Kata mind you




Which does seem a contradiction. What did you mean by the above?
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#397245 - 05/30/08 07:45 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I do not have experience of Judo kata. The Judo clubs that i've trained with (for only relatively short periods at a time) appeared not to show any emphisis on kata as in karate. Is this the norm?
Is this a good representation of Judo kata:?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VVHapcWbhAE




As far as my limited teeny bit of Judo crosstraining knows, yeah I think that's a good respresentation.
Did you guys do uchi-komi? That's not much different from the way i've been taught to train some Karate techniques. Obviously the presentation of Judo kata is often overly formal, but the practice of it also teaches you alot I'd imagine. I don't know whether practicing Seionage with a partner is consdiered "kata" or not by most Kodokan Judo guys, but I know it is in some styles of Jujutsu.

Quote:


Also I've clearly stated i've not rejected the usefulness of kata training. I don't see that kata is useful for UFC fights as has been suggested. I've also pointed out that the reason/function for karate kata in not known and varies dramatically between styles, within style, between individuals, perhaps even within individuals!




That goes for anything, not just Karate or Kata, way to be general about being general lol!

Quote:


Do you think, like has been suggested, that Kata (just performance and complete training) is a useful method for training for a UFC fight?




No, i'd imagine training for a UFC fight requires training for a fight, however you could practice plenty of the techniques in Karate and Judo kata (and guess what people do) in a 'live' environment with a training partner such as is done in a wide variety of arts.

I do think there is value in a holistic sense of practicing the solo routines but incrementally if your goal is purely fighting then it's the paired drills and "live" work that would matter i'd think.

On the other hand, I find it amusing the way people dismiss "kata" as if the term can only imply some guy standing on the beach meditatviely doing a solo form.

I also find it odd that people are having such a hard time believing that Machida's Karate training could have had an effect on his fighting style.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/30/08 08:08 PM)

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#397246 - 05/30/08 08:09 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Not that every Kata is a fighting Kata mind you


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Which does seem a contradiction. What did you mean by the above?




Meaning that there are Kata that focus on other parts of development which are not fight specific but play a role in training and ultimately a role in fighting.

The same way flipping a tractor tire over and over is not a fighting drill, but the results ultimately help your conditioning, and thus your fighting.
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#397247 - 05/30/08 10:34 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Their fighting is always self defence based. Not MMA, not even sport karate.




I don't buy the whole sport vs sd thing. Either you can stop someone from effectively attacking you and attack them or you cannot. Motobu was able to utilize his karate in a "sport" environment against a pro boxer. I guess no one told him karate is not effective if used in this way.
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#397248 - 05/31/08 02:24 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
A pro boxer didn't have the skills to put motobu in a RNC, armbar, etc... or it would have been a different story.

Kata can be what you make of it,but I don't see how it could be beneficial to mma. I especially don't see how it could be more beneficial than mma training to mma.

I still don't see how kata training helped
Machida in any way,his fight training helped him along with his natural attributes. Nor do I see how that if he trained in 'pure' Okinawan kata that none of his fights would have went to a decision. GERK!!!
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#397249 - 05/31/08 03:16 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

A pro boxer didn't have the skills to put motobu in a RNC, armbar, etc... or it would have been a different story.

Kata can be what you make of it,but I don't see how it could be beneficial to mma. I especially don't see how it could be more beneficial than mma training to mma.

I still don't see how kata training helped
Machida in any way,his fight training helped him along with his natural attributes. Nor do I see how that if he trained in 'pure' Okinawan kata that none of his fights would have went to a decision. GERK!!!




It might be more of a question about getting Motobu or any other karate fighter in such a disadvantageous position so that such submissions can be applied. Of course Kyan fought a judo man and he was unable to get a submission on him. So are you saying that a karateman will always be at a disadvantage versus a grappler?

As far as fights not going to a decision it is about the intent of okinawan karate. In fact, this is one of the main aspects of it that seperates the modern sport karate styles from the classical or koryu ones. The intent is to go for the "kill" so to speak from jump. Once you engage with your opponent you don't stop until someone cannot continue, either him or you. Think of it like this. If you had an opportunity to fight the man who killed your best friend in the cage, would you try to win on points by using octagon control or would you go out there to try to KO him. In okinawan karate you try to KO every opponent in every engagement.
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