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#397230 - 05/29/08 04:38 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JasonM]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Getting a tiny bit bored of this but one more time.

Med:
Quote:

Notice I did not credit kata training to his stricking skills




Med:
Quote:

When did I change my story?




Med:
Quote:

Many of Lidell's striking techniques are found in kata. Overhand strikes, straight punches, hook punches, and front kicks are there. Even some of the standing grappling he uses to stop takedowns. In fact, his strategy comes from kata as well. The whole I want to fight from my feet thingy. In addition, Liddell utilizes a whipping effect which helps him generate his KO power




Does his style appear karate like in anyway other than 'he throws punches, there are punches in karate, he does karate punches'. Answer NO!

Who you debating with? The forum or yourself?
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#397231 - 05/29/08 06:23 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Creative, please, so there will be no further misunderstandings, why don't YOU define what techniques similar to karate are. I can list various similarities and you can continue to discount them if no one knows what definitions you are going by. So please, be my guest.

And in regard to Chuck not gaining his skills through kata, it is possible to gain skills learned in karate without ever performing a "kata."
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#397232 - 05/30/08 07:40 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I mentioned earlier in the thread about people not knowing the use of kata. I think this post kind of adds weight to that.





Many people might still not full understand all the use of all the karate kata. I dont. I understand some uses of some karate kata.

Quote:


It seems many people seemed happy to accept that kata was for fighting multiple attackers.





Perhaps they thought that but I dont.

Quote:


Another popular thought was that it was for defences against karate style attacks.





I think I would ask them to define a karate style attack and which strain of karate? And which attack?

Quote:


Performing kata improved timing, improved zanchin.





Again I think they would have to clarify what they mean.
Quote:


Then kata was for defence against common attacks, habitual acts of violence.





I suppose elements in certain kata do contain these thing.
Quote:


Then came UFC and kata is used for wrestling.





Hmmmm

Quote:


Kata is to show pressure points.





hmmmm

Quote:


Nathan Johnson then says kata is about passive fighting, as monks would fight.





That might be market orientated. The stuff I learn isnt passive. In a basic kata I have studied there is a basic self defence technique of grabbing a wrist and smashing upwards with the forearm to break the fingers. Not to passive.

Quote:


Then kata has ground fighting.





I think there are elements in kata but it isnt as something as intense as a pure groundfighting training programme.

Quote:


N.Johnson then finds kata is for weapon fighting.





I find from my studies that weapons might have been included in some kata.

Quote:


Kata is moving meditation.





Hmmmm

Quote:


Now that Machida , a karate like fighting guy is doing well in UFC Kata can be for MMA fighting.





I should imagine parts of certain kata can.

Quote:


Now i know not all people think all or some (or none) of these things, and these are very broad generalisations. You can see where it gets a bit ridiculous.




Ok if I might explain from my experience. Kata was taught in karate. It had to be done for grades. It was used for competition. No one had a clue what it was for or rather very few had much of a clue. Then some people started looking and researching to find practioners who knew what they were for.


Just going back to the MMA self defence thread.
Quote:



While i'm sure hand conditioning can reduce the chances of breaking your hand punching, I do not see it as a worth while practice.




This is going back to the self defence in MMA thread.
kyokushinkai.
I think it is relevent to the thread because it can show how different people view and indeed train karate so karate cant realy have one stereo type.


Quote from a kyokushinkai practioner who states he is now retired.

The reason I practice this is because in kyokushin the fighting is full contact and bare hands. Many times you hit the opponents forearms or kick with your shin. The traditional way of working at the makiwara (wich I used to do back in the days) it doesn't translate well in kumite (this is just my oppinion). The angles are different when you are fighting then when you are doing the kihon .

So he has adjusted the makiwari use to suit his art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWU155hm7Vo&feature=related


So all in all lets be honest in the main some strains of karate might have been taught with out knowing the full meaning.

So might be the confusion with why people use kata.
I cross train and I am still learning.

Some have more knowledge.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/30/08 07:55 AM)

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#397233 - 05/30/08 02:32 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK

Quote:

Creative, please, so there will be no further misunderstandings, why don't YOU define what techniques similar to karate are. I can list various similarities and you can continue to discount them if no one knows what definitions you are going by. So please, be my guest.




You got a point. I think it is going to be pretty much impossible to define what techniques are similar to karate. I've not got the time or patience to even start writing, drawing, looking for videos on that.

I think most people know and have an idea what looks like karate, judo, boxing, Thai boxing etc.
Machida has a definite karate look about his strikes, I think most would agree.
I'm being lazy and not using the search function, but i'm betting there has not been a thread about Chuck using karate in MMA. The reason this thread probably started is because this is currently an unusual feat.

Quote:

And in regard to Chuck not gaining his skills through kata, it is possible to gain skills learned in karate without ever performing a "kata."




Why did you mention 'katacentric'. The only reason I can think of is to credit kata. But I dont think this is going to be a worthwhile debate.

Something i think is interesting is that now Machida has been successful all the people who seem to believe Kata to be a useful too for MMA.

I couldn't have persuaded the die hard karate guys that kata could be useful to MMA in the past if i'd have paid them. I'd have been laughed away - can imagine it now: "Kata is not for sport grasshopper. You obviously havn't been training kata properly"
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#397234 - 05/30/08 04:16 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Something i think is interesting is that now Machida has been successful all the people who seem to believe Kata to be a useful too for MMA.

I couldn't have persuaded the die hard karate guys that kata could be useful to MMA in the past if i'd have paid them.




So you think that Karate Fighters, train Kata one way, then turn around and fight a different way? And you claim to have seen the inside of a Karate Dojo?

If so you need to get your money back. IF you can't take the skills you develop and inject them directly into your fighting, then you are wasting you time, period.

Not that every Kata is a fighting Kata mind you, but every Kata has content, some many layers of content that all on some level contribute to fighting skills.

The fact that you can't see that, or make the connections is beyond my comprehension.

That said, not everyone likes doing Kata, and there are other ways to learn fighting skills, of course.

But to say Kata is useless for fighting, MMA or any other type of combat, is just plain wrong.
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#397235 - 05/30/08 04:22 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Kimo -

I don't think that creative was attempting to speak for all karate people. But my experience parallels his - the vast majority of karate people apply their skills *completely differently* from how their kata is practiced.
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#397236 - 05/30/08 04:39 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Matt-

And I think that is a major problem, why would you train one way and fight another? It makes no sense.

And if the vast majority of people out there make no connection between Kata and fighting, then Karate as a style is in worse shape then I thought.
Maybe I am too harsh on Creative and his Time in a Dojo. But I will say to anyone, if you can't connect Kata (or any training for that matter) then quit doing it, you are wasting your time.


Edited by Kimo2007 (05/30/08 04:42 PM)
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#397237 - 05/30/08 06:04 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Matt-
But I will say to anyone, if you can't connect Kata (or any training for that matter) then quit doing it, you are wasting your time.





Kimo, I've been saying that on this forum for five years.



-John

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#397238 - 05/30/08 06:19 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Kimo, I've been saying that on this forum for five years.




I know, and please don't interrupt me when I am plagiarizing you.
_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#397239 - 05/30/08 06:20 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

So you think that Karate Fighters, train Kata one way, then turn around and fight a different way? And you claim to have seen the inside of a Karate Dojo?




No I don't THINK, I KNOW that this is the case with some/many karate fighters, I've seen it. I've visited dojo's and experienced it. I've read karate books, tae kwon do books, that clearly make no connection between fighting and kata. I would go as far to say it is the exception rather than the rule (in my area atleast) that karate schools link their kata to their fighting.

I've also experienced karate where kata is clearly linked to their fighting, where all the techniques come from kata. Some good some not so good. Their fighting is always self defence based. Not MMA, not even sport karate.

Quote:

If so you need to get your money back. IF you can't take the skills you develop and inject them directly into your fighting, then you are wasting you time, period.




If i've been in a dojo or not (I have ), does not change that people seem to have a massiely varied view on the function/purpose of kata and how to train it. AND now it appears that kata can train you to be an MMA fighter? I call BS.

Quote:

Not that every Kata is a fighting Kata mind you, but every Kata has content, some many layers of content that all on some level contribute to fighting skills.




Course not, didn't Elvis do karate for the singing kata?

This is one of the things that are said so that kata can incorporate whatever people like and other things can just be dismissed.

Quote:

The fact that you can't see that, or make the connections is beyond my comprehension.




I can see that kata could be used for some purposes e.g. a fun, challenging, interesting method of learning self defence (whether i think it is a efficient way of training or not). I cannot connect kata to MMA.

Quote:

That said, not everyone likes doing Kata, and there are other ways to learn fighting skills, of course.

But to say Kata is useless for fighting, MMA or any other type of combat, is just plain wrong.




Just karateka decided not to mention katas uses for dual type fighting against fighters of a variety of styles until now?

And when previously mentioned they laughed it off saying that kata was not for sport fighting? - Was this a secret kept in certain karate circles so that Machida could work his way through the LHW Division?
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