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#397180 - 05/27/08 06:49 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
This is hilarious.

Here is my take on it.

Machida does the following:
learns shotokan from his father since age four, along with the kata in the curriculum;receives his blackbelt at 13yrs old;competes and does well at pointfighting tournaments;spars regularly at his karate school like he should;trains in sumo,MT,BJJ,mma,etc;goes undefeated 13 times,8 by decision and credits his karate training.

Couldn't it be assumed that he says these things to bring credit or even honor to his father and their way of training? Wouldn't it be better to credit that than to say it's his mma training? I think so and that's probably the case.

Looking through the video's can you see bunkai applications being applied in his mma fights? Let me guess, elbows, knees,etc.. Show me.

Karate is good! Properly trained kata is good!

Trying to apply ONLY your kata and karate training in an mma environment would be....like the early ufc's!!

Sure,some of the things he does could be accredited to his karate/kata training. Most of it is the same as other mma stars.

Now, when some mma guy ko's him, I don't want to hear it.
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#397181 - 05/27/08 07:01 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
MattJ Offline
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Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Gotta disagree here, I don't know what "stereotypical karate" would consist of, but his standup stuff definitely looks like Karate to me.

I realize it's hard to say what's what in terms of an MMA fighter's influences but I will say the way he moves has a distinct Shotokan influence to my mind.




Gotta disagree with your disagreement, bro.

Watching both the Franklin and Bonnar fights, he looks much more like a kickboxer/MT guy. The Bonnar fight especially, his hands are in stereotypical MT position all the time.

I will grant you that his stance is a bit wider than what is normally seen. But everything else looks like regular MMA to me.
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#397182 - 05/27/08 08:11 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Matt,

If you watch his point fighting tournaments and the Tito Ortiz match you will see similarities.
The way Machida is elusive and goes in for a quick attack and back out. Just a small portion of karate though, he's doing mma a majority of the time, he wins with his mma tactics. Remember 8 of 13 have went to judges decision.
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#397183 - 05/27/08 09:58 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Then you would not be looking at the information available from the majority of successful MMA fighters.
As far as I know, only 1 person in the UFC uses anything that appears similar to karate to any great effect 1 person in the history of the UFC. Correct me if I am wrong.




Wrong. Chuck Liddell's techniques come from a katacentric system similar to many okinawan karate styles. Its just that after Hack learned the system and how to fight with it he eliminated the kata and called it Hawaiian Kempo. I have seen the similarities first hand since I used to train with a Hawaiian 8th Dan trained by William Chow. I used to help him prepare his one student for his BB.
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#397184 - 05/27/08 10:01 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Couldn't it be assumed that he says these things to bring credit or even honor to his father and their way of training? Wouldn't it be better to credit that than to say it's his mma training? I think so and that's probably the case.




Wrong Brian. Obviously he is doing so as a deception so that he can sell karate training DVDs and books. That's how it works. See Ed, I'm learning.
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#397185 - 05/27/08 10:21 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I see clear evidence of karate in Machida's techniques. He uses mae geri effectively - not just as a "push kick".

There is a lot of karate in Machida's technique. I'd go so far as to say it was his "mother tongue"...

I agree with your comments Brian. In terms of the holy grail of "applied bunkai" you referred to in the embu thread, this man has it.
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#397186 - 05/27/08 10:35 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Machida is a great fighter with a lot of experience... first in Karate, then in BJJ and now MMA. To attribute his success to his early training in Karate might be a little off mark but I can understand how Karate purists like to see their art being represented (even if mostly only in name) in MMA. He had to learn striking somewhere and it seems like he learned it pretty well. Good for him.

Shonie Carter did well also and put the Spinning Back Fist on the MMA map against Serra. I know a lot of traditional MA people who went thru the roof when that happened.
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#397187 - 05/27/08 10:46 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Fletch1]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Fletch, its not just his early training. Machida was competing and training in karate while he was also an MMA fighter. In fact, I believe one of the most recent karate tournaments he competed in was in 2005. I think it is important to understand that not everyone trains in a different art to learn that art. Some do to learn how to use what they already know to fight against it. I'm not saying that Machida only uses karate, but to dismiss his use of it because what he does is different from what you know as karate is naive.
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#397188 - 05/27/08 11:06 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I see clear evidence of karate in Machida's techniques. He uses mae geri effectively - not just as a "push kick".

There is a lot of karate in Machida's technique. I'd go so far as to say it was his "mother tongue"...

I agree with your comments Brian. In terms of the holy grail of "applied bunkai" you referred to in the embu thread, this man has it.




Wonder if it came from his MT training?

Bunkai is least of all strikes imo. It is made up of locks, chokes, and throws,in other words, fight enders.
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#397189 - 05/27/08 11:11 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

Quote:

So then why practice kata at all if not to improve fighting ability?




I've been asking THAT question for years.

Two things; 1) We don't know if he practices kata. 2) If he does, imagine how good he'd have been if he hadn't.


-John





It isn't in the least bit proven he would be better without kata. Has kata made him the great fighter he is? Probably not though the mechanics of Karate techniques have probably helped.
The fact is your statement implies that he would be much better without having spent time on kata which is pure speculation.
To say what you said is an untested theory not a fact. Probably true though, I've lost much faith in Kata although it's fun sometimes and doesn't really hurt imo.
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