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#397150 - 05/27/08 03:04 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Lol. Kimo! Do you not read the posts!

you wrote:

Quote:

Quote:

Ok. So your position that simply going through the motions of a particular kata will help you in an mma fight. Got it.




How could you possibly come to that conclusion from what posted ? Either pass the bottle or lay off the hooch!


Then you wrote:

Quote:

Performing kata would not be a effective way of training the above




You are so very wrong.





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#397151 - 05/27/08 03:05 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Why didn't kata help in mma back in 1993?




Well, if you hand pick karate guys with almost zero experience fighting grapplers that is pretty much what is going to happen. Remember, the okinawan karate masters knew how to grapple and how to handle grapplers as well.

What if Royce never trained to fight strikers and all of the karateka he fought had years of experience in using their karate against grapplers? How would his BJJ have faired then?

The early UFC was a BJJ marketing machine. Fighters were hand picked. This wasn't just open to anyone who thought they could compete.
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#397152 - 05/27/08 03:11 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
So far:

kimo:

Quote:

stepping offline, angles of attack, transitional footwork, changes of level, power and focus would help an MMA fighter. Any Kata/form that trains in conserving body motion and maximizing power




and

Jude:

Quote:

Elbows,
punches,
forearm strikes,
parrying




Are what an MMAist can get from performing kata!

1) They wouldn't get these tools to any proficient level (if at all) by performing kata

2) They've got them already from MMA training.
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#397153 - 05/27/08 03:12 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
LOL @ this thread. I think it's fair to say that kata training is at best a neutral idea for MMA fighters. It clearly doesn't help (early UFC's), but it doesn't seem to hurt, either.

I can personally do without it. But if someone else can get something from it, it's all good.

Re: Lyoto Machida - Considering that he has trained MT and BJJ, as well as Sumo and Shotokan.........

Oh never mind.
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#397154 - 05/27/08 03:54 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Fighters were hand picked. This wasn't just open to anyone who thought they could compete.





Was Shamrock hand-picked? What about Kimo Leopoldo? Or, had they stopped "hand-picking" by the time Kimo entered (at UFC 4)?

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#397155 - 05/27/08 03:58 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

LOL @ this thread. I think it's fair to say that kata training is at best a neutral idea for MMA fighters. It clearly doesn't help (early UFC's), but it doesn't seem to hurt, either.

I can personally do without it. But if someone else can get something from it, it's all good.

Re: Lyoto Machida - Considering that he has trained MT and BJJ, as well as Sumo and Shotokan.........

Oh never mind.




Actually its funny because HE credits his striking success to his karate training. However, I guess even WE know better than HIM.
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#397156 - 05/27/08 04:15 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


You're wrong! It has not been proven as effective. If it had how come only 1 person (that i know of), machida, uses karate as apposed to the vast majority of MMAist who use boxing? Chance? No, it's because boxing has proven itself to be reliable and effective.
I'm not saying a karate style could not be effective, but so far only one person has notably used it to any great effect.





This is actually incorrect, there have been a fair amount of MMA/Karate guys over the years, and some fighters come from knockdown styles like kyokushin.
For whatever reason people don't talk about it much, doesn't mean it ain't so.

There is defnitely a double standard when people throw out the concept of Karate's effectiveness as opposed to other arts.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 04:23 PM)

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#397157 - 05/27/08 04:24 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i would think that if kata is going to help you in a mma fight, it has to be trained alot differently than what is going on in your standard karate dojo.

just going through the kata motions like brian said, isn't going to help that much i don't think. the reason i would use is that its like learning to dance until you take out techniques found in kata and work them. iain abernethy calls is kata based sparring i think, where you take say a shoulder lock found in heian nidan and then work on trying to apply it to an active agressive attacker focused on taking your head off.

in that way, the kata is more like a recodring device, like a video camera. a kata is a collection of techniques, practing these against air helps you how much? now alot. shadow boxing helps, sure, its great, but no replacement for live restiant sparring. which is a foundation of mma.

traditional karate contains a huge potential in its kata, but often its training methods are sub par, or rather adequate for wht its practioners use it for. there are principals of sumo, thai boxing and everything found in kata, the hard part is taking them out, and drilling them in different contexts to take thoes skills from potential to practical.

i think this is in large part what a level headed katate ka can expect to get from his training, and probably what alot of us are trying to say? please shoot this idea to peices if you want, its only my opinion.

i might be wrong here, but i think this idea is what med is trying to get accross sometimes. take a hip throw and shoulder lock from a kata, then drill that sequence in different ways, and with different levels of resistance to build practical fighting skill. did you learn it from kata? yes, kind of.

what this kind of traiing ends up looking like is less like a "traditional" dojo, and more like a room with a bunch of people learning to hurt each other. it won't matter if you can take a kata to a competetion and score with it, the kata is just "shadow grappeling/dirty boxing". when you have a partner around, you can work all the tricks you've learned on eathother.
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#397158 - 05/27/08 04:27 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Well, if you hand pick karate guys with almost zero experience fighting grapplers that is pretty much what is going to happen.




Hand picked TOP karate guys. Why did they have no grappling experience if it was in the kata? They did kata?

Back in the day when it was style vs. style karate found out it had weaknesses IMO. Some people addressed them (Machida?) others obviously havn't.

Quote:

Remember, the okinawan karate masters knew how to grapple and how to handle grapplers as well.




Nope. Do not remember. I remember accounts Okinawans used to play wrestle when they were kids. Big difference having a wrestle with your mate and taking on a dedicated wrestler!

Quote:

What if Royce never trained to fight strikers and all of the karateka he fought had years of experience in using their karate against grapplers? How would his BJJ have faired then?




What if! For a start according to you, the karate guys should have had a massive upper hand on the Gracies being as karate guys have been practicing wrestling since the days of its founders (who knew how to handle grapplers).

As MattJ said:

Quote:

It clearly doesn't help (early UFC's), but it doesn't seem to hurt, either.




Quote:

Actually its funny because HE credits his striking success to his karate training. However, I guess even WE know better than HIM.




Would love to see his kata applications.

Also I bet his training is more MMA than karate.
_________________________
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#397159 - 05/27/08 04:29 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: student_of_life]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


what this kind of traiing ends up looking like is less like a "traditional" dojo, and more like a room with a bunch of people learning to hurt each other. it won't matter if you can take a kata to a competetion and score with it, the kata is just "shadow grappeling/dirty boxing". when you have a partner around, you can work all the tricks you've learned on eathother.




I would argue that what you describe above is "traditional" karate training. I think this is what alot of people are moving back to, small to medium sized groups doing this kind of training rather than the stereotypical class of 50 doing synchronized kata together for a hour.

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