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#397430 - 06/10/08 07:27 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Are you a history student?




Not leading to any form of a qualification as such but I do like to research history though.

History is a point in time when events occured.



Okinawa might have had at some time physical infleunce from certain people from Mesopotamia. Physical evidence seems to be there.
Origins of karate maybe? Just to stay on topic seeing as karate is the word being used on the changing topics of this thread.



Jude


Edited by jude33 (06/10/08 07:36 AM)

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#397431 - 06/10/08 08:04 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:


History is a point in time when events occured.




I suppose so.

Quote:

Okinawa might have had at some time physical infleunce from certain people from Mesopotamia. Physical evidence seems to be there.




Well, there are some pots etc. dating from Greco-Roman times showing forearm blocking. Maybe this indicates a spread of knowledge gradually overland to India, then China, then Okinawa. But a direct influence is unlikely in the extreme.

Moreover there is a good case for arguing parallel evolution. The spiny echidna looks like a porcupine - but they are completely unrelated (the former is a marsupial)... There are too many similar examples to mention.

To my knowledge the Phonecians from the middle east might have even made it down the east coast of Africa as far as Mozambique. Alexander made it as far as present day Pakistan. There is a legend of a battalion of Roman troops ending up in Western China. Marco Polo made it to China 1000 or so years later.

There is no evidence of Western or Middle Eastern visits to Okinawa until the Napoleonic era 300 or so years after that.
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#397432 - 06/10/08 09:04 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
If the Phoenicians made it to East Africa, in the absence of the Suez canal, they would have gone the (very)long way round presumambly to get to Mozambique. There were Israeli sailors (from the time of King Solomon supposedly) who made it down from the Red Sea (to which the Phoenicians did not have direct access) to present day Sth Africa though, leaving cultural traces in the Lemba tribes who have genes common to modern Jews and practice some forms of Jewish ritual...

B.

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#397433 - 06/10/08 09:53 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: Barad]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Yes - the idea that the Phonecians made it that far is just conjecture. Some even thought they might have circumnavigated Africa, but no-one knows or will likely ever know.

My guess is that, given their boats (made from reeds if I recall) weren't terribly seaworthy, they wouldn't have made it round the Cape of Good Hope - and one wonders why they would have bothered to go that far.

From memory it was the Portugese (Vasco da Gama) who made the first recorded trip around the Cape to present day Mozambique before turning back. I recall that was in the 1500s.
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#397434 - 06/10/08 09:59 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
yep, I think so, hence why they speak Portuguese...

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#397435 - 06/10/08 10:15 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: Barad]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:


Med said "Goju from his line is no more okinawan that Shotokan karate is"

Med I am shocked-I am sure some idiot wrote a book recently saying that Shotokan was the ancient bodyguard art of the Okinawan court, Tekki sideways movements protecting the king against assasination etc (long before Shoto/Funakoshi actually lived of course but still Shotokan is an ancient Okinawan art apparently).

B




Shocked about what? Are we talking about the Shotokan that Funakoshi first brought to Japan, or the athletic performance and combat sport that it currently is? When describing karate shotokan is generally described as Japanese karate. It may very well be more okinawan than any okinawan karate out there, but I don't believe so if you look at the other styles of okinawan karate out there and then look at what Shotokan has become. But we all know that Funakoshi is the father of Japanese Shuri style karate just as Yamaguchi is the father of Japanese (Naha style karate) Goju. In that there is no flaw in my comparison. Do YOU find fault with that comparison?
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#397436 - 06/10/08 10:24 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
No, I was being ironic in a very petty way and without looking back at the thread cannot even remember what prompted me to post. The idea that Shotokan ould be called Okinawan is pretty stupid to me, hence why I referred to some "idiot" writing a book to promote the idea and some stupid bunkai for Tekki besides. Forget I mentioned it, it was not having a go at you.

B.


Edited by Barad (06/10/08 10:26 AM)

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#397437 - 06/10/08 11:46 AM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Though I agree with your comparison of Goju-Kia and Shotokan being Japanese versions of Okinawan TE, you would have to admitt that Goju-Kia is not a totally different art then Goju-ryu as it is with Shoto-Kan. Most of Shorin-Ryu looks different in movment and purpose then Shotokan. Thus it being named a totally different system.

IMO Shito-ryu is the closest Japanese Okinawan Karate I know of, probably more Okinawan then Goju-Kia.

Shotokan is Japanese Karate.

But generally speaking you are right Japanese Goju-Kia is more linera then Okinawan Goju-ryu, just as Shotokan is to Shorin, which uses more softer movement and angles.


By the way this could have been 3-4 different threads.


Edited by Neko456 (06/10/08 11:47 AM)
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#397438 - 06/10/08 12:32 PM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

But generally speaking you are right Japanese Goju-Kia is more linera then Okinawan Goju-ryu, just as Shotokan is to Shorin, which uses more softer movement and angles




I believe you mean Goju Kai.

jude,

Do I care to explain Yamagichi's goju to you?

http://fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=137

I didn;t learn from Yamaguchi.
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#397439 - 06/10/08 02:53 PM Re: Yamaguchi's Goju [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Med

"find fault"

Nope, not really, just think your drawing the lines a little to narrow---its a case IMO of defination--exactly what, where and how, you define and view the terms.

From my perspective pretty much ALL schools of karate look and feel very different...some are much more "similer" than others--but I see very real differences between students at the SAME exact dojo, even more between seperate lines of the SAME style--even with 2 students that once studied under the same master--etc.

You watch underbelts from the same school do things they pretty much all look alike, do things the same way---when those same students reach black belt--they all tend to be doing the same things in slightly differnt ways--the longer they train the more "individual" their art becomes...again IMO.

I'm sure that one can make a case for "more" of "less" similer or "closer" or "further" from some starting point.

To me its just a matter of degree...and not something that is all that important.


Edited by cxt (06/10/08 03:03 PM)
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