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#397350 - 06/05/08 11:31 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

With all due respect, you are miles off base here. No way is kata an EXCEPTIONAL conditioning/fitness tool for anything but....being able to perform more kata.




I think you meant "with no respect".

Quote:

... indeed sport science has shown that training should be specific to performance, i do not think that dismissing katas use is "unfair bashing".




Yes, my brother and sister-in-law both have a degrees in sport science so I know this principle. On the basis of your argument I hope you don't run or skip etc. - they look nothing like fighting/MMA...
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#397351 - 06/05/08 11:41 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

I think you meant "with no respect".




I think that is unfair and am sorry if you feel disrespected. I don't see that I've disrespected you anywhere. I have only questioned what you've said and put forward arguments which I've tried to back up. We must question what we do, right?

Quote:

Yes, my brother and sister-in-law both have a degrees in sport science so I know this principle. On the basis of your argument I hope you don't run or skip etc. - they look nothing like fighting/MMA...




You are missing the point. It depends how/why you skip and how/why you run. You must train them in a manner which is simulative of the stressing incurred during MMA fighting. They will have specific purposes, and aim to improve specific elements of fitness.


Edited by creative (06/05/08 11:42 AM)
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#397352 - 06/05/08 11:51 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:


Basically what that means is, where in the name of HELL would I manage to squeeze in kata?




Who's asking you to do so?

Quote:

Personally speaking, all of the things that I already do are far and away better for my skills development or physical conditioning than doing a Goddamn kata until I'm blue in the face!




You're not shy about denigrating kata as 'Goddamn' etc. You keep saying 'but that's just me' as if somehow thia makes it okay for you to, effectively, denigrate those who choose to practise kata... 'Go knock yourself out' / 'blue in the face' etc. are all highly dismissive. I see you are passionate about your view and I appreciate that my opinion/choice isn't popular today, but it is my view based on my own experience and reasoning, not because "I'm stuck in the past".
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#397353 - 06/05/08 12:07 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I think that is unfair and am sorry if you feel disrespected. I don't see that I've disrespected you anywhere. I have only questioned what you've said and put forward arguments which I've tried to back up. We must question what we do, right?




Your view is so obviously contemptuous of mine, (see dismissive words like "outdated" and "painting the fence" etc., your SHOUTING) that I don't see any "we'll have to agree to disagree" type respect happening. Accordingly I found your comment "with all due respect" a trifle odd. If you read my other posts on this forum you'll see that I'm endlessly accomodating of questioning. I've a high tolerance for argument, a low tolerance for disrespect. I've not treated your views as contemptuous even if I disagree with them. I'll thank you to do the same with mine.

Quote:

They will have specific purposes, and aim to improve specific elements of fitness.




Ditto with kata. I never said anything else.

You can disagree, that's fine. But I don't care to have your disagreement accompanied by put-downs. I'm a thinking, experience martial artist who has his fair share of battle scars. I might be wrong, but you'll have more luck convincing me with polite, though forceful, reasoning than you will be dismissing my views as simply "out of touch"/deluded (however you view it, that is how your previous post read to me).
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#397354 - 06/05/08 12:25 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Your view is so obviously contemptuous of mine, (see dismissive words like "outdated" and "painting the fence" etc., your SHOUTING) that I don't see any "we'll have to agree to disagree" type respect happening. Accordingly I found your comment "with all due respect" a trifle odd. If you read my other posts on this forum you'll see that I'm endlessly accomodating of questioning. I've a high tolerance for argument, a low tolerance for disrespect. I've not treated your views as contemptuous even if I disagree with them. I'll thank you to do the same with mine.




Again I'm sorry if you feel disrespected, I can assure you it was not my intention.

I have been using caps to highlight certain points, not as shouting, I've noticed others on this site do the same thing.

I maintain that practicing kata for fighting fitness is a dated method of training, there simply are far far superior methods, so much so that kata for fitness for MMA fighting IMO is not a method.

Quote:

Quote:

They will have specific purposes, and aim to improve specific elements of fitness.




Ditto with kata. I never said anything else.




The specific elements that fitness training by repeating said for 1hour 20 minutes do not correspond with that of an MMA fight.

Quote:

I might be wrong, but you'll have more luck convincing me with polite, though forceful, reasoning than you will be dismissing my views as simply "out of touch"/deluded (however you view it, that is how your previous post read to me).




You are making it sound like I have dismissed what you've said out of hand where as infact I've presented an argument and backed it up. Nothing rude or disrespectful about that.
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#397355 - 06/05/08 12:43 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Ives Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Just me offering my view on a certain part in this discussion.

During training (seiyunchin)kata for 80 min. I understand that it isn't just fitness that is trained, but also sabaki, kokoro and waza (footwork/angling sp?, mind and technique).

I can imagine that these aspects aren't trained combined with fitness in a regular MMA training session. (That just came to thought while reading through this debate.)

And kata training is more than running through motions, like in a solo-practice of say seiyunchin.

Techniques trained within solo-kata-practice are for muscle memory, in the ideal way. When applied in this 'ideal' way, they get the best results I recon. And that's what is aimed at, during kata-practice.

I see the same principles trained in kata, trained in MMA (whether grappling, striking etc.)
Kata also offers solo-practice, which I don't see much in MMA.
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#397356 - 06/05/08 12:45 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
The tone of your earlier posts is at odds with what you say. Had you expressed your view as you did in your last post, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid (again, read my other replies to quite fierce, though polite, debates elsewhere). I accept the caps use - but the rest of your posts seem derogatory about kata and, quite clearly, about anyone who would use them. You appear incredulous that someone should dare suggest that kata could possibly be useful - ie. question the prevailing zeitgeist. Well I am one who would. It might not be a popular view, but it is reasoned, not simply based on some bias or prejudice I have inherited.

In any event, I'm happy to accept that you did not intend to be rude, so we'll leave it there.

If you say kata is outdated, I'd like to know on what basis/studies etc. you make this assertion. It might be "accepted" in your circles, but I've not reached that conclusion, despite a healthy respect for MMA and quite a bit of "hard knocks" experience.

My reference to the 1 1/2 hour kata stint was, as I explained earlier, just an example of my fitness at the time. Brian will tell you that performing this kata is like bag-work - hard to keep up because it is so draining. It's like shuttle runs, if you want a good anaerobic running equivalent. If I were to recommend a form of running training for MMA, shuttle runs would be one of them - sharp, explosive and above your VO2 max quite a bit of the time. Like full-power seiyunchin kata practice.
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#397357 - 06/05/08 01:17 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

......but the rest of your posts seem derogatory about kata and, quite clearly, about anyone who would use them. You appear incredulous that someone should dare suggest that kata could possibly be useful - ie. question the prevailing zeitgeist. Well I am one who would. It might not be a popular view, but it is reasoned, not simply based on some bias or prejudice I have inherited.




A few things here.
I have not anywhere stated that kata is useless. Also I have clearly stated on multiple occasions that I feel kata to be a useful tool for some individuals for some purposes. I feel this element of your post is simply untrue.

What the comments I have made have been very specific towards katas use for MMA fighters/MMA type tournaments.

Secondly, I do not feel that you are necessarily swimming against the current with your views on kata especially with in the martial arts world in general. I think kata practice is as strong as ever if not more so with the work of people such as Patick McCarthy, Ian Abernethy(sp), Rick Clarke and others. To an extent i feel kata training has become 'cool' again.
I though, have not before heard such support for kata AS A TOOL FOR MMA FIGHTING. It is this specific element which I am debating.



Quote:

If you say kata is outdated, I'd like to know on what basis/studies etc. you make this assertion. It might be "accepted" in your circles, but I've not reached that conclusion, despite a healthy respect for MMA and quite a bit of "hard knocks" experience.




Again, I've not said kata is outdated, but kata performance as a means of improving fitness for fighting. I am attempting to be specific in my arguments. My basis of argument have been presented throughout this thread.

Quote:

My reference to the 1 1/2 hour kata stint was, as I explained earlier, just an example of my fitness at the time. Brian will tell you that performing this kata is like bag-work - hard to keep up because it is so draining. It's like shuttle runs, if you want a good anaerobic running equivalent. If I were to recommend a form of running training for MMA, shuttle runs would be one of them - sharp, explosive and above your VO2 max quite a bit of the time. Like full-power seiyunchin kata practice.




I acknowledge that performing kata can be physically demanding. But it does not simulate an MMA fight. There are far too many dissimilarities. I do not feel that performing any kata (at any intensity) and shuttle runs are comparable.

I feel that many karateka try to make kata out to be a complete, all encompassing training tool, which it is not. There is no other form of training that does everything, kata is no different.


Edited by creative (06/05/08 01:18 PM)
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#397358 - 06/05/08 03:38 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

You could, but kata is not a better way to train for mma.
Trying to set me up,homeskillet?




I am not talking about better or worse, just its usefulness. So you still have not answered the question. What type of fighting, other than self defense, is kata training good for if any? You said you could, but what specifically can it be used for. People have to me it is not useful for fighting in MMA at all. That is a very specific statement so what combative situation can it specifically be used for?

And I'm not setting anyone up. I simply ask questions. At least I didn't say you were trying to set up a kata marketing scheme and sell online down loads of your goju kata applications.




I was told that this should be in another so I assumed they were referring to this one. So, Brian, care to respond to my question?
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#397359 - 06/05/08 03:53 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

People have to me it is not useful for fighting in MMA at all. That is a very specific statement so what combative situation can it specifically be used for?

I was told that this should be in another so I assumed they were referring to this one. So, Brian, care to respond to my question?




I don't care to,but I guess I will anyway.

What happened to you putting up or shutting up?
oh, the irony....

Quote:

What type of fighting, other than self defense, is kata training good for if any?




The types of fights where there are no rules or boundaries.

It all depends on how you train the kata. How do you train kata? There are certainly more ways to go about the same thing. You don't need to know kata to fight,obviously, it's just whatever is the preferred method of training of the practitioner. Machida's preferred method seems to be BJJ, MT, wrestling, etc...

As I said before, the mere 'doing' of kata is not a good training method for mma. Using kata just for fighting purposes isn't either.
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