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#397200 - 05/28/08 04:43 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Actually, I was very impressed with that.




Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Quote:

Looks like you had to spar some tall guys.I liked that alot.




I'm 5'10", so you can guess that those guys are pretty big. The tallest guy in that video has legs like tree trunks. As he became more senior he became almost invincible - a short-a** like me just couldn't get in! Shame he's given it away in very recent years (marriage, babies, career etc.).

Quote:

My only critique would be that there was alot of kicking, not really goju stylistic in my opinion,but effective none the less!




Aah - but I love my front kicks. Before my arthritis I could kick like a mule. Now I kick like wombat.

Quote:

If we keep agreeing on things, what are we going to talk about?




We can always gang up on someone...
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#397201 - 05/28/08 05:34 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Actually Brian, its interesting that you mention that, becuase its not his success which causes me to clearly see his Shotokan training, but its the large number of fights which end in decision. He still retains the in and out sportive methods that modern shotokan sport karate has rather than the live or die okinawan diving straight in methods. I could see an okinawan karateka's fights never going to decision.




A very astute observation.
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#397202 - 05/28/08 05:44 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Not Saying karate can't be used (it can look at Machida) but the evidence is in support of boxing.




Whose style of boxing? Are you talking the pitter patter point scoring style of boxing ? Or the style Tyson used?
And whose style of karate punching? Use MMA gloves and is there a great difference?

But I would concede that wrestling/ grappling should have been trained along side karate. But that isnt the karate ka's fault. More the education types.

Karate and wrestling. An excellent combination. If only we had good wrestlers in this country.

Kata by the way has its merits.

Jude

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#397203 - 05/28/08 07:52 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Whose style of boxing? Are you talking the pitter patter point scoring style of boxing ? Or the style Tyson used?




WTF?

Jude, have you ever done any boxing at all? Or any martial arts, for that matter? Questions like that make me think you have not.
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#397204 - 05/28/08 08:54 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Wrong. Chuck Liddell's techniques come from a katacentric system similar to many okinawan karate styles. Its just that after Hack learned the system and how to fight with it he eliminated the kata and called it Hawaiian Kempo. I have seen the similarities first hand since I used to train with a Hawaiian 8th Dan trained by William Chow. I used to help him prepare his one student for his BB.




But kata is not used anymore, so to credit kata to his striking is misleading.

It is easy to credit kata, doesn't make those credits worthy. Okinawan striking is only good because it was from china, Chinese is only good because it came from India, was only good because it came from what ever! (just making a point i know this is not the history....)
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#397205 - 05/28/08 09:08 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stormdragon]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Dan
Quote:

I have no doubt that had traditional karate masters like Higaonna sensei competed in early UFC while in their prime they would have demonstrated quite ably karate deflections and striking (as well as grappling etc.)




I'd have to disagree. I see no evidence to suggest they would have performed any better than the strikers who entered the tournament at the time did. I do not think they would have lived with the wrestling of Seven(Severn?)/Shamrock or the jj of Gracie.

Quote:

I might say that by "mother tongue" I'm not suggesting that karate is the dominant influence on his technique - just his first, and that it has left a clearly identifiable stamp. Of course, his other training has (as you point out) had a major impact.




Agree here.

Med
Quote:

He still retains the in and out sportive methods that modern shotokan sport karate has rather than the live or die okinawan diving straight in methods. I could see an okinawan karateka's fights never going to decision.




He goes in and out because he has knowledge of wrestling and knows if he stayed at close range he'd get tied up by superior wrestlers and taken down. It is intelligent fighting. His time at Shotokan tournaments may have helped him in that respect, e.g. quick feet. But isn't point scoring tournament just about as far away from kata as there is?

I agree that if using the method of diving straight in there is the OKinawan way, then yeah no fights would go to decision as they would be G'n'P'd to a TKO.
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#397206 - 05/28/08 09:34 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

BTW, shotokan has been mocked and claimed to be watered down by those who are now praising Machida here, pfft...lol!!




Actually Brian, its interesting that you mention that, becuase its not his success which causes me to clearly see his Shotokan training, but its the large number of fights which end in decision. He still retains the in and out sportive methods that modern shotokan sport karate has rather than the live or die okinawan diving straight in methods. I could see an okinawan karateka's fights never going to decision.




I should have known.

I guess one day we will have a true okinawan master like yourself that will completely dominate the mma world by just the use of kata and karate training. pfft....
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#397207 - 05/28/08 09:54 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
It is possible that, with the rules, Higaonna Morio wouldn't have fared as well - we'll never know. He was well out of his prime when UFC started anyway.

However the stand-up/striking artists that I saw fighting in those early days were not in Higaonna sensei's class.

I don't know of any other martial artist who can generate quite the same "hydrostatic shock" as Higaonna, combined with his hand conditioning. His punches and strikes were (and still are) the pinnacle of "bare knuckle" fighting as opposed to gloved punches (which require a different approach). Still there are others who are comparable in the traditional karate schools.

The standup fighters I remember had little of this ability in bare knuckle fighting and little of the conditioning. Moreover they had all grooved very bad sports karate/tkd/kickboxing habits that the grapplers both expected and exploited (clinches etc. were their God-send, while most of the stand-up fighters fell for the "dive to the legs" takedown time and time again.)

I'm not a student of Higaonna's btw - its just that karateka of his calibre were not, in my view, represented at UFC. I'd have put my money on Higaonna and several others any day (even more so if it were truly "no rules"...) Have you ever seen Higaonna demonstrating his "hand tearing" technique?

You're entitled to your view on this hypothetical as am I - but I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss people of Higaonna's fighting method or calibre. And his grappling is actually outstanding - albeit not as protracted in tactics.
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#397208 - 05/28/08 10:12 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
The good part about martial arts discussion forums is that we can all chime in with our opinions and speculate about what "couldda, wouldda, shouldda" happened.

The BAD part is that we can all chime in with our opinions and speculate.....etc.

Hopefully everyone realizes how cheap talk is here.

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#397209 - 05/28/08 10:18 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I could see an okinawan karateka's fights never going to decision.




Priceless! I just saw that!

*sound of siren*

THIS IS THE HYPERBOLE POLICE! PUT THE HYPERBOLE DOWN, AND SLOWLY BACK AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD!
_________________________
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