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#397190 - 05/27/08 11:20 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
You haven't studied kata long enough to have faith in it,much less lose it storm.
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#397191 - 05/27/08 11:44 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Wonder if it came from his MT training?




Some of it, of course. But his mae geri is classic karate - the MT version is done as more of a "push" kick, as far as I know. Mae geri is one of the most under-utilised techniques in contact sports, yet it is very effective, as this gentleman demonstrates.

Quote:

Bunkai is least of all strikes imo. It is made up of locks, chokes, and throws,in other words, fight enders.




We'll have to agree to disagree. Your comment echos what seems to be a fairly popular view nowadays, but it is not one with which I concur.

To me some kata are predominantly about strikes - be they to joints, vital points (eg. eyes, abdominal organs, nerve points) etc. And I'm not talking dim mak. I'm talking simple bare-knuckle/finger/palm/elbow/foot/knee striking. Katas like seisan have very little by way of grappling applications, IMHO.

Others can and do disagree, but I see a lot of "revisionism" going on - making more out of blocks, chambers etc. than they really are.

For example, there are many people out there who boldly proclaim "there are no blocks in karate". They are entitled to their viewpoint, however I, quite emphatically, disagree. I'm sure many hold this view sincerely and passionately. Others annoyingly jump on the bandwagon and sell DVDs/books proclaiming to reveal the "secrets" of karate.

I have no doubt that had traditional karate masters like Higaonna sensei competed in early UFC while in their prime they would have demonstrated quite ably karate deflections and striking (as well as grappling etc.). The fact that the Gracies were masters in their art (and all-round excellent martial artists) meant that they were way ahead of the mostly sports karate people that they encountered.

The problem I see with karate is not that it "is a fraud from the waist up" as Joe Lewis declared (speaking, of course, in the context of punching/striking etc.) but that people have difficulty reconciling basic or kata moves (that are larger, more formal) with applications that are necessarily abbreviated.

I frequently use the analogy of the boxer's speedball: if a boxer insisted on literally trying to box in the ring with a "speedball" action he would fail miserably. It doesn't mean speedball practice is useless.

Kata and basics are training tools. Kata bunkai practice is an attempt to isolate the meaning of parts of these training tools in what you have called a "passive" environment. Because of this passivity it is necessarily just the beginning of study, where many karateka see it as the end.

When you apply basics or bunkai you should retain what the Chinese term the "yi" (mind or intent), but not necessarily the exact "xing" (form). So for example hike/kake uke in goju (circular chest block) might look like a large movement, but it is, IMHO, a composite movement. Put another way it is a complete exploration of the angle of deflection being grooved. I regularly use part of the hike uke in sparring - the beginning, middle or end of the traditional basic deflection. It might not look like hike uke to you or anyone else, but I know what I'm applying and how much the basic exercise has helped me gain the skill to effect the deflection.

Yes, hike uke can be a lock (specifically, and most obviously, shao tran in qin-na). But to argue that this is its primary application is to me ignoring its primary value as a deflection. The fact that most karateka don't even try to apply the principles of deflection in sparring and resort to boxing is, to me, indicative of knowledge attrition more than it is that "blocks don't work" or that they have some "hidden" alternative meaning - eg. locks, holds, grappling, throws etc.

I'm sure many will disagree, but that is my (unfashionable) 2 cents...
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#397192 - 05/27/08 11:54 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
How do you know? You are certain to have far more knowledge and experience than me so your opinion should be taken first along with many others on here but I do have quite a bit of kata/hyung training.
The fact is, whatever Machida is doing it works, he's kicking a@@ so who're we to criticise his methods. Can't argue with results I mean if he's winning so much than his training works and we have no place to argue with it, even if he does kata 500 times a day, he wins.
If it aint broke don't fix it.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#397193 - 05/28/08 12:08 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Very good points Dan. I don't agree with most of it,but very interesting none the less.


Quote:

Some of it, of course. But his mae geri is classic karate - the MT version is done as more of a "push" kick, as far as I know. Mae geri is one of the most under-utilised techniques in contact sports, yet it is very effective, as this gentleman demonstrates.





He does have a good front kick, even to the face of some of his opponents!

Quote:

To me some kata are predominantly about strikes - be they to joints, vital points (eg. eyes, abdominal organs, nerve points) etc. And I'm not talking dim mak. I'm talking simple bare-knuckle/finger/palm/elbow/foot/knee striking. Katas like seisan have very little by way of grappling applications, IMHO




I know and study adomently only a few kata. They are the 3 taikyoku, seiunchin,sanseryu,sanchin and tensho. I do study American goju,which is different and I have been patronized for it,but I think it's just as close to being okinawan an anyone's nowadays. BTW, shotokan has been mocked and claimed to be watered down by those who are now praising Machida here, pfft...lol!!

I have a few threads here way back addressing chambering and blocks as I see them applied. If you look hard enough in this forum in the back,you will find them. They may be posted under SANCHIN31,my former screen name,but I don't want to derail where this is going.

I stand by my claim that Machida did very well and SOME of it is because of his karate training, mostly because of his other endeavors.

Quote:

I frequently use the analogy of the boxer's speedball: if a boxer insisted on literally trying to box in the ring with a "speedball" action he would fail miserably. It doesn't mean speedball practice is useless.






Great analogy! Mind if I use it sometime?

Quote:

Kata and basics are training tools. Kata bunkai practice is an attempt to isolate the meaning of parts of these training tools in what you have called a "passive" environment. Because of this passivity it is necessarily just the beginning of study, where many karateka see it as the end.





I fully agree with you on that!!

1. Learn the movements of the kata.
2. Learn the applications of the kata.
3. Learn to apply the bunkai passively. Some might call these 'one steps'.
4. Apply the bunkai with resistance and in sparring as much as possible.(no throat strikes,joint or limb destructions!)

Have any videos of your sparring? I'd like to see them!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397194 - 05/28/08 12:11 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

How do you know? You are certain to have far more knowledge and experience than me so your opinion should be taken first along with many others on here but I do have quite a bit of kata/hyung training.
The fact is, whatever Machida is doing it works, he's kicking [Email]a@@[/Email] so who're we to criticise his methods. Can't argue with results I mean if he's winning so much than his training works and we have no place to argue with it, even if he does kata 500 times a day, he wins.
If it aint broke don't fix it.




I don't really know Storm, I'm just going by your age brother.

I'm not criticising Machida's training, I'm just putting it into perspective. It's not just karate/kata training that makes him effective.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397195 - 05/28/08 12:38 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hey Brian

Your points are also well made.

I might say that by "mother tongue" I'm not suggesting that karate is the dominant influence on his technique - just his first, and that it has left a clearly identifiable stamp. Of course, his other training has (as you point out) had a major impact.

I agree with your comments about American goju and shotokan being unfairly stigmatised.

In that regard, I still admire shotokan and always will, even if it is not my chosen art/emphasis (we practice the shotokan tekki shodan, after all). I have too many friends and colleagues who make it work very well to criticise them. Ever seen Stan Schmidt and Norman Robinson in action?

As to the kata you practice, they do have a higher percentage of grappling bunkai than other goju/shorin kata, so I can see your perspective.

As I said on the embu thread, the only sparring video I have is this one of our "randori" (a softer kind of sparring that we mostly do in the dojo). I hastily put it together for Harlan a couple of weeks ago. I'm the short guy with short hair who does a bit of grappling somewhere in the 1996 segment. This was before I developed Crohns, so I was fitter and stronger back then, but such is life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU.

I was reluctant to put the video on Youtube for all the "that wouldn't work" type comments you invariably get from keyboard ninjas. In the end I'm fairly thick skinned so I put it on anyway. I'm not the world's best fighter - "this is who I am and what I do" is my attitude.
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http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#397196 - 05/28/08 01:04 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Quote:

Quote:

How do you know? You are certain to have far more knowledge and experience than me so your opinion should be taken first along with many others on here but I do have quite a bit of kata/hyung training.
The fact is, whatever Machida is doing it works, he's kicking [Email]a@@[/Email] so who're we to criticise his methods. Can't argue with results I mean if he's winning so much than his training works and we have no place to argue with it, even if he does kata 500 times a day, he wins.
If it aint broke don't fix it.




I don't really know Storm, I'm just going by your age brother.

I'm not criticising Machida's training, I'm just putting it into perspective. It's not just karate/kata training that makes him effective.





Faire enough, and you're right I mean ultimately I dont have that much tangible experience with kata training or ma in general but a decent amount and a lot of what I know comes from you guys. Not just personal training. So in a way it's like I have the value of your years of experience however it's never as good as having actually done it I suppose.
About Machida, another fair point, I think I kind of misunderstood you.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#397197 - 05/28/08 01:53 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I might say that by "mother tongue" I'm not suggesting that karate is the dominant influence on his technique - just his first, and that it has left a clearly identifiable stamp. Of course, his other training has (as you point out) had a major impact.





Exactly!

Quote:

I agree with your comments about American goju and shotokan being unfairly stigmatised.

In that regard, I still admire shotokan and always will, even if it is not my chosen art/emphasis (we practice the shotokan tekki shodan, after all). I have too many friends and colleagues who make it work very well to criticise them. Ever seen Stan Schmidt and Norman Robinson in action?





Yep, some here say if you don't call it somehing legit....bla bla bla...I believe any karate can be made solid.

Sorry, I haven't heard of those guys.

Quote:

As I said on the embu thread, the only sparring video I have is this one of our "randori" (a softer kind of sparring that we mostly do in the dojo). I hastily put it together for Harlan a couple of weeks ago. I'm the short guy with short hair who does a bit of grappling somewhere in the 1996 segment. This was before I developed Crohns, so I was fitter and stronger back then, but such is life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU.

I was reluctant to put the video on Youtube for all the "that wouldn't work" type comments you invariably get from keyboard ninjas. In the end I'm fairly thick skinned so I put it on anyway. I'm not the world's best fighter - "this is who I am and what I do" is my attitude.




Actually, I was very impressed with that.

Good control,good free flowing techniques, liked the takedowns!! Looks like you had to spar some tall guys.I liked that alot.
My only critique would be that there was alot of kicking, not really goju stylistic in my opinion,but effective none the less!

If we keep agreeing on things, what are we going to talk about?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397198 - 05/28/08 03:03 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

BTW, shotokan has been mocked and claimed to be watered down by those who are now praising Machida here, pfft...lol!!




Actually Brian, its interesting that you mention that, becuase its not his success which causes me to clearly see his Shotokan training, but its the large number of fights which end in decision. He still retains the in and out sportive methods that modern shotokan sport karate has rather than the live or die okinawan diving straight in methods. I could see an okinawan karateka's fights never going to decision.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#397199 - 05/28/08 04:02 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
In mma winning is winning. And he wins. Plus he's exciting.


Edited by Stormdragon (05/28/08 04:07 AM)
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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