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#397170 - 05/27/08 05:34 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Also eople have been saying - 'MMA guys could learn a lot from kata' I refute that.




What if we were talking Judo kata?

Also, you didn't specify that the BJJ/Wrestler wanted to learn striking for MMA competition, in that case i'd send him (and I imagine so would nearly anyone) to a place that taught striking skills associated with MMA competition. However that wouldn't be because I think MMA trained striking is superior on the whole(I defnitely don't), but because it seems to be the most expeditious (doesn't equal "best" in general) thing for training for MMA events.

I have great respect for MMA and (some of) the effect it's had on the MA world, however it is not a microcosm of reality which accurately reflects what is "best" in martial arts on the whole in anything but the most general sense, you can guys can believe that if you want, I don't care. However it's a hugely flawed argument to assume that this sport which has gained popularity so recently has changed the entire world of martial arts, something which has been around a long long time.. that's marketing, not reality.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 05:43 PM)

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#397171 - 05/27/08 05:38 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Creative, your whole arguement is assuming that most karate guys understood karate as it was understood in the 1800s. This is a false assumption. Please try harder next time.




Coming from the guy (gal?) who assumes the masters from the 1800's were proficient grapplers.

Do you know karate as it was in the 1800s? Bet you do, and I bet it was much better back in 'the day'.

If there are people like others have suggested are too quick to dismiss karate, then there are also far too many people who are too quick to leap to the support of karate and make assumptions like karate used to contain wrestling and grappling, assume the 'masters' knew best etc etc. Faith based not evidence based.
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#397172 - 05/27/08 05:45 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

...to the support of karate and make assumptions like karate used to contain wrestling and grappling, assume the 'masters' knew best etc etc. Faith based not evidence based.




Without touching on groundfighting stuff...you do realize that Karate most defnitely, empirically contains standing grappling techniques and throws don't you? There are photos from way back in the day detailing this.

Again i'm not talking groundfighting.

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#397173 - 05/27/08 05:46 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stampede]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

I'm not going to post my views on kata training.




Then why is anyone going to take the time to educate you on how to use a Kata and transfer those skills to resistance training?

Either get in on the debate or sit on the sidelines, but don't ask someone to write you an instructional manual and wave 5 bucks in the air like you are posing a legitimate question.
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#397174 - 05/27/08 05:48 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Experience in what? Certainly not training Kata.




Wrong.

Quote:

Logic? It's logical to completely dismiss a training method as useless even though fighters have used it for centuries?




Is it logical to not question something just because 'it's always been that way'.

Quote:

Common Sense? Is it common sense to say you don't see the value, so there must not be any?




I see what the value of practicing kata holistically might be (and i think it is an inefficient way of training btw). Performing kata to improve fighting is just about none sense.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397175 - 05/27/08 05:52 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Quote:

...to the support of karate and make assumptions like karate used to contain wrestling and grappling, assume the 'masters' knew best etc etc. Faith based not evidence based.




Without touching on groundfighting stuff...you do realize that Karate most defnitely, empirically contains standing grappling techniques and throws don't you? There are photos from way back in the day detailing this.

Again i'm not talking groundfighting.




Yeah. Sorry was not clear. I'm talking about grappling in the sense that Medulanet was talking about.

(I do do karate!!)
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397176 - 05/27/08 05:56 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Experience in what? Certainly not training Kata.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wrong.





Mmmmm doubt it, or like what has happened to so many students you trained somewhere that Kata was a road to a belt and you spent your time waving your arms and kicking your legs with no real understanding of why you were doing it.

Quote:

Is it logical to not question something just because 'it's always been that way'.





Question sure, dismiss out of hand, no.

Quote:

Performing kata to improve fighting is just about none sense.




And that is just not true, like I have said I know plenty of MMA guys who would benefit from some Kata, just in the same way I know plenty of TMA folks who benefit in some MMA training methods.
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#397177 - 05/27/08 06:08 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Mmmmm doubt it, or like what has happened to so many students you trained somewhere that Kata was a road to a belt and you spent your time waving your arms and kicking your legs with no real understanding of why you were doing it.




It's up to you to make assumptions. I cannot prove anything over a forum. Though I may now repay the favour. You train mma?Mmmmm doubt it more likely hug your friends whilst rolling around and kiai-ing?

Quote:

Quote:

Is it logical to not question something just because 'it's always been that way'.





Question sure, dismiss out of hand, no.




You are making a lot of assumptions. Dismiss it out of hand, nope. Dismiss it after training it, yes (unfortunately i had to go through that!)

Quote:

like I have said I know plenty of MMA guys who would benefit from some Kata





I doubt they would get the benifit you think they would. Again all the things you mention can be better trained w/o kata

Quote:

just in the same way I know plenty of TMA folks who benefit in some MMA training methods.




We have something in common!
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397178 - 05/27/08 06:19 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


It's up to you to make assumptions. I cannot prove anything over a forum. Though I may now repay the favour. You train mma?Mmmmm doubt it more likely hug your friends whilst rolling around and kiai-ing?




Now why would you say that? And why the tone? Further, why participate in this discussion if you can't keep away from the ad-hominems attacks? We are in the Karate forum after all, and if your opinion is that low of us, I suggest leaving.

Just to set the record straight, since you have some pretty set ideas about what Karate training entails, I assume you have some (bad) previous experiences with it?

I agree kata training is not the most efficacious route to being a big bad ass, but i don't think that's it's intent, and it's also part of an overall training program.

It's funny, you could take some traditional kata, break them down into shadowboxing and 2 man drills, and not mention the solo form, and i'll bet anything you guys wouldn't have this kind of visceral reaction to it, even though for some of us it'd essentially be the same thing it was before.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 06:28 PM)

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#397179 - 05/27/08 06:38 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Now why would you say that? And why the tone? Further, why participate in this discussion if you can't keep away from the ad-hominems attacks? We are in the Karate forum after all, and if your opinion is that low of us, I suggest leaving.




It was a reply to kimo's trashing my karate training with out any knowledge of it, if he can throw it he ought to be able to receive it. Meant as a dig nothing else!

Quote:

Just to set the record straight, since you have some pretty set ideas about what Karate training entails, I assume you have some (bad) previous experiences with it?




Some bad, many very good. I'd like to think that i'm not set in my ways. I put my point across strongly otherwise it ends up an agree to disagree situation. (which is sometimes a good thing lol)


Quote:

I agree kata training is not the most efficacious route to being a big bad ass, but i don't think that's it's intent, and it's also part of an overall training program.




Has nothing to do with being a 'bad ass'. Has to do with being an effective MMA fighter. You will not get this from kata, and even if you could/did, it would not be worth the hassle.

Quote:

It's funny, you could take some traditional kata, break them down into shadowboxing and 2 man drills, and not mention the solo form, and i'll bet anything you guys wouldn't have this kind of visceral reaction to it, even though for some of us it'd essentially be the same thing it was before.




Perhaps!? I have never seen it done effectively for MMA. For simple self defence yes, MMA fighting NOPE.

P.s. what does hominems mean?
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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