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#397160 - 05/27/08 04:34 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

1) They wouldn't get these tools to any proficient level (if at all) by performing kata






What do you base this opinion on?

And for it already being in the MMA training, the depends deeply on the training they are gettting, I've seen plenty of fighters who are severly lacking in many of these areas.

That said, I've seen plenty of people who got nothing from Kata, but it's not the Kata's fault it's a tool like anything else, use it correctly and you'll see benifit, walk through the moves and you might as well pack up and go home.
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#397161 - 05/27/08 04:38 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Quote:


You're wrong! It has not been proven as effective. If it had how come only 1 person (that i know of), machida, uses karate as apposed to the vast majority of MMAist who use boxing? Chance? No, it's because boxing has proven itself to be reliable and effective.
I'm not saying a karate style could not be effective, but so far only one person has notably used it to any great effect.





This is actually incorrect, there have been a fair amount of MMA/Karate guys over the years, and some fighters come from knockdown styles like kyokushin.
For whatever reason people don't talk about it much, doesn't mean it ain't so.

There is definitely a double standard when people throw out the concept of Karate's effectiveness as opposed to other arts.




I do not believe it is incorrect. Some people may have come from knock down styles of karate, but as someone mentioned earlier, they soon tend to abandon that kind of training and incorporate either boxing or kickboxing. (ofcourse i don't know all the top fighters training)

If a guy with a background in wrestling and BJJ came to you looking for advice on adding striking, where would you point him? Boxing/ Thai boxing or shotokan?

Not Saying karate can't be used (it can look at Machida) but the evidence is in support of boxing.
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#397162 - 05/27/08 04:50 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:


What do you base this opinion on?





Experience, logic and common sense.
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#397163 - 05/27/08 04:56 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I do not believe it is incorrect. Some people may have come from knock down styles of karate, but as someone mentioned earlier, they soon tend to abandon that kind of training and incorporate either boxing or kickboxing. (ofcourse i don't know all the top fighters training)




You mean the train with an MMA methodology once they compete in MMA? NO WAY!

Of course that is so, however it's probably not the safest assumption to think that years of kyokushin etc. training simply ceases to exist once one starts training in another method.

Quote:

If a guy with a background in wrestling and BJJ came to you looking for advice on adding striking, where would you point him? Boxing/ Thai boxing or shotokan?




Depends on what he was training for I suppose, I wouldn't have any problem sending someone to a Shotokan dojo to learn sound striking.

You are reversing what the thread is asking. No one is saying "Karate is best/better for MMA"....we are asking whether Machida's success is due in part to his Karate training, and whether he is using these methods in the ring, he seems to be doing so to good effect. the fact that alot of you guys feel that Karate training hasn't been ring proven doesn't negate the fact that he is using Karate in MMA.

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#397164 - 05/27/08 05:03 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Creative, your whole arguement is assuming that most karate guys understood karate as it was understood in the 1800s. This is a false assumption. Please try harder next time.

And what top karate guys were in the UFC. Fred Ettish? *#@$% please!
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#397165 - 05/27/08 05:12 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Experience, logic and common sense




Experience in what? Certainly not training Kata.

Logic? It's logical to completely dismiss a training method as useless even though fighters have used it for centuries?

Common Sense? Is it common sense to say you don't see the value, so there must not be any?

Personally I train at both an MMA club and a tradition school, I see pro's and cons to both but the cross training has been quite benifical to be me in both arenas.
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#397166 - 05/27/08 05:23 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Kimo2007]
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
. . .

Srsly?

I'm not going to post my views on kata training. I'm going to ask a question:

Can someone who actively uses kata training in an Okinawa/Japanese-based martial art post a general-to-specific training modality for the forms?

By that, could someone please show, from introduction of individual techniques to the full learning of the kata, how the techniques, movement potentials, energy generation and flows, etc, can and are translated to resistant training?

Please? I'll PayPal $5 to the person who posts a realistic curriculum of such.
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#397167 - 05/27/08 05:25 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Actually its funny because HE credits his striking success to his karate training. However, I guess even WE know better than HIM.




Well HE also did MT and BJJ. So how can WE determine how much success is based purely on his Shotokan? I don't see what it matters anyway. The only people that care what style he does are the ones that have something to prove in that regard.

I mean, it's not like what he does looks anything like stereotypical karate.
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#397168 - 05/27/08 05:28 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I mean, it's not like what he does looks anything like stereotypical karate.




Gotta disagree here, I don't know what "stereotypical karate" would consist of, but his standup stuff definitely looks like Karate to me.

I realize it's hard to say what's what in terms of an MMA fighter's influences but I will say the way he moves has a distinct Shotokan influence to my mind.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 05:30 PM)

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#397169 - 05/27/08 05:30 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

You mean the train with an MMA methodology once they compete in MMA? NO WAY!

Of course that is so, however it's probably not the safest assumption to think that years of kyokushin etc. training simply ceases to exist once one starts training in another method.




Fair point. But still the fact that karate training method seem to be somewhat neglected by many of these former karateka is telling. The post made specific reference to kata, which i should imagine would be one of the first things scrapped when MMA training begins. IMO.

Quote:

Quote:

If a guy with a background in wrestling and BJJ came to you looking for advice on adding striking, where would you point him? Boxing/ Thai boxing or shotokan?




Depends on what he was training for I suppose, I wouldn't have any problem sending someone to a Shotokan dojo to learn sound striking.




Then you would not be looking at the information available from the majority of successful MMA fighters.
As far as I know, only 1 person in the UFC uses anything that appears similar to karate to any great effect 1 person in the history of the UFC. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quote:

You are reversing what the thread is asking. No one is saying "Karate is best/better for MMA"....we are asking whether Machida's success is due in part to his Karate training, and whether he is using these methods in the ring, he seems to be doing so to good effect. the fact that alot of you guys feel that Karate training hasn't been ring proven doesn't negate the fact that he is using Karate in MMA.




Again, it was not just karate training, but kata.

And the question was not 'DUE IN PART' but

"Do you believe Machida's success in mma is DUE to his karate training? Kata?"

I'd say partly to karate, not due to performing kata, a lot due to his training in MMA.

Also eople have been saying - 'MMA guys could learn a lot from kata' I refute that.
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