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#397330 - 06/04/08 06:07 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Jude:
Quote:

Quote:

I tried to persuade myself not to engage in conversation with you,




Creative with all due respect I somehow get the feeling that you might be a begginer at training. Nothing wrong with that. We are all here to learn




You have quoted me here. Then your response to my quote is completely unrelated. This is one of the reasons people find you hard to follow. I get the feeling you don't re-read your posts, which is important if you want to get your points across.

Secondly, you call me a beginner, Zach something like 'unexperienced in sparring and self defence', something similar to Brian. It seems to be a theme of your posts to assume someone is inexperienced if they disagree/ ignore your randomness.


Quote:

............
I asked for reference to wrestling in the Preston area?
No response.............





You want me to ring around preston and see if I can find you a club, is that it? Arrange a taxi to get you there too. Just randomness Jude.

Quote:


Jude might on occasion be random but I am working on it.



Good!

Quote:

Regards the body weight factor.

A full spar or even a technique spar in boxing particular with heavyweights ( the reason why I asked for your bodyweight and gave mine) could mean the use of very heavy sparring gloves (pillows they were/are refered to as) ,head guards, gum shield, body protecters and groin protecters,

So how do you see heavyweights in MMA's sparring stand up?




Go to an MMA gym and find out.

Are you suggesting heavyweights don't spar?

re-read your paragraph, do you find it hard to understand too?

Quote:

Can I ask which boxing gym's are you refering to creative?




Don't remember talking about a boxing gym, has nothing to do with the thread. Why bother?

Is this end of thread, no one got anything worthwhile to add lol.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397331 - 06/04/08 06:19 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
jude has the inate ability to throw threads completely off track with his randomness.

I started this thread questioning Machida's use of karate in his mma fights. There have been a few good responses and arguments on both sides.

Now, after more than 200 posts jude33 is ruining it all. Thanks 109kilos!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397332 - 06/04/08 07:04 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Does it suffice to say that Machida uses a few moves and tactics from Karate (including some of the ones he got from kata) along with elements of Thai Boxing and other MMA disciplines? His success comes from good training habits and effectively and adaptively using the tools he's learned that he likes. Does that about do it?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#397333 - 06/04/08 07:39 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

20 pages....wow. Hope you guys have time left over to actually train.




lol. I've not been able to train for the past couple of weeks giving me all this time to debate online. Thank god i'm back on monday!

Quote:

In the end, regardless of where you stand on this issue, the least you can do is pressure test yourselves. If you're doing that and are making progress in your own games, isn't that really all that matters?

As I mentioned, I used to be heavily into the anti TMA argument. And while my opinions haven't changed, I just have lost any desire to try and enlighten anyone else to my way of thinking. The way I see it now is, if you get it, great. If you don't get it, great. Not my problem.

Now instead of arguing back and forth about the detriments of each others methods (methods that you probably don't participate in by the way), here's an idea; talk about the POSITIVES that you derive from your chosen practice? Eh? Sound good? No? Didn't think so.

-John




You are right, but it is fun to have a bit of a debate.

I've not really been knocking kata training as a whole. While it is not what I choose to do, I though do see that for some people it can have value, and have mentioned the positives, as you say, in places on this thread. I've seen certain functions of kata training been well argued by karate guys (and experienced it used well) also I've heard it been unduly dismissed by non karate guys.

I also think people have this kind of 'PC' mentality that you can't say anything critical about kata, karate or TMA in general. And the arguments back are very often the same i.e. you don't understand kata, you've not trained kata, and if you have you've not trained it long enough or right. This kind of allows people to credit kata for just about anything and everything, so why shouldn't it be questioned?

This is the first time i've seen people supporting kata as a useful tool for a UFC fighter (have you heard this before?), and the arguments in support of it have been like I mentioned above.


Edited by creative (06/04/08 07:44 PM)
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#397334 - 06/04/08 09:22 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'm certainly one for a good debate. However, my angst just isn't what it used to be. Like I said before, I just don't give a [censored] anymore to be honest.

However.....

Kata for MMA equals boolshit. That would be not just MY opinion, but about damn near everyone's that really matter. Unless of course, you just have a lot of extra time on your hands that you don't know what to do with.

Otherwise, I believe it wastes time. But that's just my opinion. Some will differ, but that's what makes the world go around. Thank God for venues like the UFC and other such events that enable people to put their money where their mouths are and let the rubber hit the road!

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#397335 - 06/04/08 10:01 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
A strongly held view JKogas - and a popular one nowadays.

But your view that kata has no purpose at all (ie. cannot be used by someone for any practical purpose) is IMHO absolutist and logically unsustainable. It reflects your own preferences, not the "knock-out argument" you and others so confidently assume. Clearly kata is, in itself, sufficient training for UFC/MMA. But if this is the basis of your reasoning then your argument is, with respect, a straw tiger - an argument you set up just so as to knock it down. No one I know is arguing that anymore.

The question is, can kata be used as an adjunct to training for combat, and if so, to what purpose? It doesn't look like fighting, but then again, neither does skipping or, as we have noted, the speedball... I would love you to try 40 seiyuchin kata, done full power, in a row. It is the closest I've come to simulating the fatigue of combat without a partner or a bag. The low stances are the equivalent of extra load - the tension and dynamic movement tax your body and you are forced past your VO2 max. As a conditioning/fitness tool it is exceptional. Maybe Machida uses kata, maybe he doesn't. I wouldn't think it was impossible.

I too don't have the stomach for this kind of argument. But when someone comes out with a statement as absolutist as yours I'm drawn (reluctantly) out of my corner. You're entitled to your view, obviously, and I don't think I'll ever convince you or your ilk to train in kata (why would I want you to?). But the debate needs to be balanced so that kata isn't given more unfair "bashing". People like me have been quiet for too long, letting the argument against kata go to an absolutist extreme.
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#397336 - 06/04/08 10:12 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
How is kata somehow more effective conditioning then running hills, hitting bags, or anything else?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#397337 - 06/04/08 10:46 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: dandjurdjevic]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

A strongly held view JKogas - and a popular one nowadays.




Popular for a reason. Lets not overlook that.


Quote:


But your view that kata has no purpose at all (ie. cannot be used by someone for any practical purpose) is IMHO absolutist and logically unsustainable.




Purpose for MMA? Its my opinion that it has no real, appreciable purpose unless you have unlimited time and just like performing it. Otherwise, any benefit that might be derived from kata can be better obtained through other means. Again, my opinion.


Quote:


It reflects your own preferences, not the "knock-out argument" you and others so confidently assume.





Well for one, it isn’t intended to be a “knock out argument”. It’s merely an opinion. But an educated opinion. You’re free to think otherwise.


Quote:


Clearly kata is, in itself, sufficient training for UFC/MMA. But if this is the basis of your reasoning then your argument is, with respect, a straw tiger - an argument you set up just so as to knock it down. No one I know is arguing that anymore.





Straw man argument? It’s opinion bro. But I can say one thing for sure that is inarguable…there is NO timing in relation to a living, resisting opponent. That just has to be there man. Without timing and resistance, YOU (not you personally, in the general sense) will become the “paper tiger”.


Quote:


The question is, can kata be used as an adjunct to training for combat, and if so, to what purpose? It doesn't look like fighting, but then again, neither does skipping or, as we have noted, the speedball…





Correct, but those things don’t teach one how to fight either…


Quote:


I would love you to try 40 seiyuchin kata, done full power, in a row. It is the closest I've come to simulating the fatigue of combat without a partner or a bag.





There’s no reason to. I’ll just do my sprawls and sprints. Thanks though.


Quote:


The low stances are the equivalent of extra load - the tension and dynamic movement tax your body and you are forced past your VO2 max. As a conditioning/fitness tool it is exceptional. Maybe Machida uses kata, maybe he doesn't. I wouldn't think it was impossible.

I too don't have the stomach for this kind of argument. But when someone comes out with a statement as absolutist as yours I'm drawn (reluctantly) out of my corner. You're entitled to your view, obviously, and I don't think I'll ever convince you or your ilk to train in kata (why would I want you to?). But the debate needs to be balanced so that kata isn't given more unfair "bashing". People like me have been quiet for too long, letting the argument against kata go to an absolutist extreme.





Bro, I gave my opinion. You’re welcome to your own. I’m not arguing. I’m stating what I think. There’s a difference. I don’t care what you believe one way or the other and won’t lose a moment of sleep if you don’t accept my view. I’ve come to this view after having BEEN involved in more traditional martial arts. I used to do kata and haven’t in over 20 some odd years. I arrived at this for a reason. My reason.

So I’m not bashing kata as much as just being honest about it. Something “dead” won’t help you develop skill for fighting, in my opinion. This is demonstrated by looking at all the great fighters who’ve never done ONE DAY of kata in their lives. The only question is then, if kata isn’t necessary for the development of a great fighter, why do it at all other than for pure enjoyment? I think the answer to that says it all.


-John

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#397338 - 06/05/08 12:30 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Looks like we got a tad bit off track again,lol.

Kata has no rhyme or reason to an mma fighter, none whatsoever in my opinion, and I'm a kata guy.

Kata has many purposes and people define them in their own way,but none are to make better cagefighters.

There is a reason why my school has integrated groundfighting, it's not in Goju.

I think where we went off track was that someone mentioned that Machida might have done this move or that from a certain kata. I have no idea what kata Brazillian Shotokan does or how Machida's school trains their kata so there is no telling. I'd really like to know though!

I'll tell you this, if I was Machida and I wanted to be successful in the UFC or mma I would train in BJJ, MT, wrestling, etc. along with my karate........oh wait, he did that!!!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397339 - 06/05/08 12:31 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Stormdragon]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

How is kata somehow more effective conditioning then running hills, hitting bags, or anything else?




Where did he say it was?
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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