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#397290 - 06/02/08 05:05 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Seiken]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Did anyone happen to see Chuck Lidell performing/testing Sanchin kata in his karate class? , I wonder how that helped his conditioning. The video he was well into his teen years and he started at 12, and kata is just as prevalent in koeikan as it is in other karate styles. I know how effective Sanchin is, but im sure creative will doubt its UFC effectiveness.




No. Sanchin is the exception to the rule as Chuck practiced it sometime between the ages of 12 and 19. I have seen no evidence what so ever to support 'how effective sanchin is for UFC'

Quote:

BTW... everyone bitching about kata, dont you think you should learn what kata is first? The people who gave us karate kata have told us what it takes to make it useful, how many people here honestly have done just that? Unless you do, your opinions are completely irrelevant, like the people who go on a diet but dont follow the program, the diet is not what failed.




Okay try my diet. East only crisps, chocolate, fried food and cake for 3 years to loose weight. Not tried it yourself? Then by your standards you can't argue with it.

Some of those disagreeing with you have experience of, or even train kata (was Matt or brian a Goju guy?) anyways.


Quote:

Almost everything in life is kata.




Here we go.

Quote:

Muay Thai, Boxing, Savate, Wrestling, doing the dishes, washing your hair, breathing, putting your shoes on, brushing the dog, mopping the floor. You do sprawl drills? You shadowbox? Then you do kata. You practice combinations? Do you visualize? You do kata. Do two man drills? Technique isolation? You do kata. Ive said it before, everyone is getting hung up on a term used to describe something, in doing so you come to conclusions based on a definition youve given that term, rather than real long hard experience.




Oh you're joking yeah?

Quote:

What better way to settle something like this than a true old fashioned brawl. Corner one we have the kata guy, corner two we have the guy who thinks he knows every martial art and everything that is truly effective about those martial arts(IE: the fa.com forum poster!)




Quote:

That was a joke




This post? Or the above quote? Serious!

Quote:

, but im sure some high strung warrior is going to be upset. I really like this board, but im sure on one here is a master of one single martial art, let alone a specific training method of a martial art. Im sure most people here like myself are still students, but most likely students who have had to sift through a bunch of BS in the TMA world to continue to be a student. So instead of a continued intelligent discussion on Kata and its transposition to MMA effectiveness you get comments like Zachs above. Who surely has reached the cornerstone of kata perfection. And its a known fact, weight has ALOT to do with what is effective and what isnt.




But we can't go through every factor which might be effective for the sakes of Judes continuous randomness.
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#397291 - 06/02/08 05:08 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I guess this is a point of difference. I strive to NOT have any rhythm in fighting, although I understand what you mean but improvising on a theme.




I like to draw my opponent in and then hit when they are not expecting it. This is how the rhythm is used. I believe Bruce Lee described it as hitting on the half beat. Using the rhythm of fighting and striking your opponent in between his attacks is a very good method. It is also used in setting your opponent up. If your opponent is defensive from the beginning its hard and takes too much time to set him up to finish him off. However, if you draw him in and give him confidence early then you can hit him when ever you want.
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#397292 - 06/02/08 05:12 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
It has just occurred to me!

MED:
Quote:

Actually Brian, its interesting that you mention that, becuase its not his success which causes me to clearly see his Shotokan training, but its the large number of fights which end in decision. He still retains the in and out sportive methods that modern shotokan sport karate has rather than the live or die okinawan diving straight in methods. I could see an okinawan karateka's fights never going to decision.




If you believe this is what is required to be a UFC fighter i.e. 'the live or die dive straight in method.' then yes you can get this from just kata.

Is this what you are getting at MED?

Would it be effective? Hell no!
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#397293 - 06/02/08 05:17 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Matt, the coreography in boxing is in its combinations. Much like in the karate I practice, although the goju flow drill camp may have a different perspective, one does not use the entire kata in order with which to fight. There are "combinations" used from kata. Kata and karate training is like good jazz music. There is pre defined notes to play, but to truly do it justice one must know how to improvise. There is a rhythm to fighting and karate and improvisation on a theme is critical to its application.




I doubt that "camp" would disagree with you, i'll go as far as to say this concept is pretty integral to Karate training for many people. the Jazz analogy is a good one!

Here is an interesting article on Judo kata, but the concepts carry over. Kata is not just Choreography. Note the part in the article about 'kata' and 'igata'.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10234&d=1175850712


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/02/08 05:32 PM)

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#397294 - 06/02/08 05:36 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
No, I never said this is what it takes to be a good UFC fighter or even a successful UFC fighter. I just said this is the mentality of okinawan karate in a fight. To be a UFC fighter would take playing the game and becoming a pro athlete. Now, karate skills can be used in conjunction with developing yourself into a pro athlete. But strictly using okinawan karate's methods would be insufficient to become a UFC fighter. Did I ever state otherwise? There is a difference between using skills gained from okinawan karate in an mma environment and training to and becoming a high level pro athlete. Okinawan karate does impart fighting skills which are second to none. However, to compete in a professional sport takes more than just having good fighting skills. I believe that many people mistake simply being a good fighter with being a pro and elite level athlete. Yes, MMA is fighting. However, it takes more than just good fighting skill to compete at the elite level.
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#397295 - 06/02/08 05:55 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
[q]You must, as Machida has done, look to other arts.[/q]

This is the bottom line to being effective in mma as was written by creative.

Med,

I'm taller than you,so your arguments just don't wash,lol. Are you Okinawan? Have you ever been to Okinawa? Quit posing and trying to make karate itno something it's not. Karate is not well rounded,we have been over this and you haven't been able to prove squat other than big lumpy jude agrees with you.

"I'm 109 kilo's!!!" WTF????

What kata technique(s) has machida used successfully?
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397296 - 06/02/08 06:30 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

[q]You must, as Machida has done, look to other arts.[/q]

This is the bottom line to being effective in mma as was written by creative.

Med,

I'm taller than you,so your arguments just don't wash,lol. Are you Okinawan? Have you ever been to Okinawa? Quit posing and trying to make karate itno something it's not. Karate is not well rounded,we have been over this and you haven't been able to prove squat other than big lumpy jude agrees with you.

"I'm 109 kilo's!!!" WTF????

What kata technique(s) has machida used successfully?




Brian, what the hell are you talking about? I did not make the 109 kilos comment, Jude did. Who cares how tall you are? And what's with this I am not Okinawan stuff. I continuously say that I am not okinawan nor do I do exactly what they do. I cannot due to our cultural differences. Still working on what we were talking about earlier, huh. Your not doing such a good job of feigning it anymore. Are you still taking your meds?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#397297 - 06/02/08 07:02 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

So if you are not talking about just solo performance are you also including resistive two man drills used to train application of kata technique and principles?




But now you're talking about two different things, Marcel. Resistive two-man training is not kata. Even two-man kata is not resistive. It's all pre-arranged.

Creative was talking about kata.




Yes, but he stated he was not only talking about solo kata performance. So the question remains, do we all have the same understanding of what "kata training" is?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#397298 - 06/02/08 07:27 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

[q]You must, as Machida has done, look to other arts.[/q]

This is the bottom line to being effective in mma as was written by creative.

Med,

I'm taller than you,so your arguments just don't wash,lol. Are you Okinawan? Have you ever been to Okinawa? Quit posing and trying to make karate itno something it's not. Karate is not well rounded,we have been over this and you haven't been able to prove squat other than big lumpy jude agrees with you.

"I'm 109 kilo's!!!" WTF????

What kata technique(s) has machida used successfully?




Brian, what the hell are you talking about? I did not make the 109 kilos comment, Jude did. Who cares how tall you are? And what's with this I am not Okinawan stuff. I continuously say that I am not okinawan nor do I do exactly what they do. I cannot due to our cultural differences. Still working on what we were talking about earlier, huh. Your not doing such a good job of feigning it anymore. Are you still taking your meds?




I was killing two birds with one Stone,lol!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#397299 - 06/02/08 07:31 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
No, I'm not going to let you off that easy. What about my arguements don't wash and what does that have to do with you being taller than me? You need to read posts carefully before spewing out this crap. However, these types of posts seem to be indicative of what you usually write on here.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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