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#397310 - 06/03/08 05:42 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Honestly you category of "what kata contains" is too general and not a little bit biased to your own viewpoint.

I don't feel kata has anything to do with Machida's success, but i don't think your picture of what it is and is not is accurate either.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/03/08 05:44 PM)

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#397311 - 06/03/08 06:04 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
What do you in your opinion is contained in kata which you believe I do not think is contained in kata?


Edited by creative (06/03/08 06:11 PM)
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#397312 - 06/03/08 06:58 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
OK here goes:

Quote:


There is inadequate striking and at best very limited wrestling and no ground fighting in kata.

Kata does not include many other factor such as strategy, footwork (etc, etc) which are vital in MMA competition.





This is just your own opinion and experience speaking, it isn't something we will all agree on or come to common ground on, so presenting it as if it's some inarguable truth is not reasonable. It's just your opinion on kata.

A much better argument can be made in terms of the training method required to be successful in whatever competitive combat sport than one based on your opinion of the lack of merit in Kata.

Needless to say Kata is not required to be successful in MMA, and the benefits of it are probably smaller than what you would get from the "standard" MMA training methodlogy, therefore most will probably discard it.

That makes alot more sense.

Why would I trust you (an admitted non-adherent of Kata training) to tell me what Kata does and does not contain?

I'm not one of the one's arguing that TMA is somehow better for MMA than MMA training lol. Empirically I think that's probably a losing argument;)

However at the same time i'm often puzzled as to why you guys think long time Karateka would take your comments on Kata to heart, why claim an understanding of a method you don't use?

Far as my own opinion on kata this isn't really the thread for it so i'll just refer you to the article I posted on Judo kata a bit earlier if you a similar perspective on things, I think the principals and concepts in that article apply to Karate kata 100%.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/03/08 07:09 PM)

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#397313 - 06/03/08 07:58 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

This is just your own opinion and experience speaking, it isn't something we will all agree on or come to common ground on, so presenting it as if it's some inarguable truth is not reasonable. It's just your opinion on kata.




True, it is my opinion. I don't feel that i was presenting it as an 'inarguable truth' but presenting it as a summary of the apparent feelings of the 'NO' group.

Quote:

A much better argument can be made in terms of the training method required to be successful in whatever competitive combat sport than one based on your opinion of the lack of merit in Kata.




I'm not sure i fully understand the above.
People on this thread have been arguing that kata would be a useful tool for UFC type fighting and that MMA fighters could learn a lot from kata. There would be no debate if no one would argue with what they see as misinformed assertions.

Quote:

Needless to say Kata is not required to be successful in MMA, and the benefits of it are probably smaller than what you would get from the "standard" MMA training methodlogy, therefore most will probably discard it.

That makes alot more sense.




I find it interesting how many karate guys do not allow any negative comments to be made about karate or kata or their training methods. And there is a kind of a 'don't pick on it' mentality when it comes to kata.

I may be wrong, but i feel you KNOW the benifits of kata training are smaller than what you would get from standard MMA training - to be a UFC fighter. Yet as you have this 'can't be seen to knock kata mentality' (at least to some extent).

SO you have to stick a 'PROBABLY' has smaller benefits. Again just my observations.

Quote:

Why would I trust you (an admitted non-adherent of Kata training) to tell me what Kata does and does not contain?




I'm very glad you do not trust what I say. That is surely healthy. But don't not trust me on the basis that I do not use kata as a tool for my MMA. Equally don't trust what MED/Jude/KIMO say just because they do kata.
Just because i do not train it does not unnecessarily mean what I say about kata is wrong.

Quote:

I'm not one of the one's arguing that TMA is somehow better for MMA than MMA training lol. Empirically I think that's probably a losing argument;)




Another PROBABLY?

Quote:

However at the same time i'm often puzzled as to why you guys think long time Karateka would take your comments on Kata to heart, why claim an understanding of a method you don't use?




A few points:
IMO kata is not a method that anyone can claim to KNOW, as it is apparently so diverse with people having different understandings of it.
Just because I no longer base my training on kata does not mean I do not understand it.
Equally, just because someone does, does not mean they understand kata.


Quote:

Far as my own opinion on kata this isn't really the thread for it so i'll just refer you to the article I posted on Judo kata a bit earlier if you a similar perspective on things, I think the principals and concepts in that article apply to Karate kata 100%.



Will read it soon. I'm thinking we may a have more similar view on kata than you think. Perhaps.

Oh, and wont you give me a couple of examples of things you believe to be in kata which you feel I do not believe. Cheers.


Edited by creative (06/03/08 08:00 PM)
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#397314 - 06/03/08 08:14 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I may be wrong, but i feel you KNOW the benifits of kata training are smaller than what you would get from standard MMA training - to be a UFC fighter. Yet as you have this 'can't be seen to knock kata mentality' (at least to some extent).




But is anyone saying that kata/karate training is better than the standard MMA training for fighting in the UFC? The arguement has been it can be utilized for fighting in MMA. I believe it is just the opposite and MMA guys seem to believe that they have cornered the market on full contact fighting ability and that certainly a TMA cannot impart skills to fight in this environment. Then they point to guys like Fred Ettish as the pinnacle of karate fighters and his failure as their proof. Its not about knocking kata. Its about people asserting that if your training falls outside of what they believe it is to train karate then you are wrong about your own training.
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#397315 - 06/03/08 08:24 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: medulanet]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Quote:

I may be wrong, but i feel you KNOW the benifits of kata training are smaller than what you would get from standard MMA training - to be a UFC fighter. Yet as you have this 'can't be seen to knock kata mentality' (at least to some extent).




But is anyone saying that kata/karate training is better than the standard MMA training for fighting in the UFC?




You are mis quoting me. This was a response to a very specific statement by Zach.

Quote:

The arguement has been it can be utilized for fighting in MMA.




I don't believe that kata training can be successfully used in an MMA fighting evironment such as the UFC as I don't believe kata has 'enough in it' for this discipline of fighting.

Quote:

Then they point to guys like Fred Ettish as the pinnacle of karate fighters and his failure as their proof.




....or lack of people who have had success from using kata training in the History of UFC as proof.
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#397316 - 06/03/08 08:26 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


I'm not sure i fully understand the above.
People on this thread have been arguing that kata would be a useful tool for UFC type fighting and that MMA fighters could learn a lot from kata. There would be no debate if no one would argue with what they see as misinformed assertions.





Not everyone is arguing that, however there is a big distinction between whether Karate/Kata has has an influence on his training, and whether it's what makes him successful. I am arguing the former, simply that it's had an effect.

Quote:


I find it interesting how many karate guys do not allow any negative comments to be made about karate or kata or their training methods. And there is a kind of a 'don't pick on it' mentality when it comes to kata.





You're "allowed" to do whatever you want within the confines of the board I assume, i'm pointing out that no one is going to consider you an authority on Kata training, so why base on your arguments on the faulty assumption that they should? I don't need to defend Kata training to you because as far as we know at this point you are not an authority on it or what it contains

Quote:


I may be wrong, but i feel you KNOW the benifits of kata training are smaller than what you would get from standard MMA training - to be a UFC fighter. Yet as you have this 'can't be seen to knock kata mentality' (at least to some extent).

SO you have to stick a 'PROBABLY' has smaller benefits. Again just my observations.




Yep, that they are, just your observations.

I put things in 'probably' because I feel this is more honest than saying defnitively, stop trying to psychoanalyze my posting style and second guess what I mean, i'm telling you what I mean right now. You have no idea what my "mentality" is and it's pretty presumptive of you to throw that in.


Quote:


I'm very glad you do not trust what I say. That is surely healthy. But don't not trust me on the basis that I do not use kata as a tool for my MMA. Equally don't trust what MED/Jude/KIMO say just because they do kata.
Just because i do not train it does not unnecessarily mean what I say about kata is wrong.





Answered above.


Quote:


Another PROBABLY?






Yes, I feel comfortable not being as sure on the subject as you.

Quote:


A few points:
IMO kata is not a method that anyone can claim to KNOW, as it is apparently so diverse with people having different understandings of it.





Generalizing about generalizing again lol, lots of people disagree on the substance of lot sof things. There are camps of general agreement out there about how Kata works.

Quote:


Just because I no longer base my training on kata does not mean I do not understand it.





Nope, but it does imply that anyone who uses these methods and is ok with them probably should take what you have to say on the subject with a grain of salt, as a "no Kata" convert it'd be pretty obvious where your feelings lie right?

Quote:


Will read it soon. I'm thinking we may a have more similar view on kata than you think. Perhaps.




Quote:

Oh, and wont you give me a couple of examples of things you believe to be in kata which you feel I do not believe. Cheers.




You haven't gone into detail about what you think is there, and I have no idea what you exposure to Karate training or Kata is so it's hard for me to say.

Anyway I've pretty much said what I wanted to say, this is quickly going to turn into the typical "you train the wrong way" forum festival at this rate (not a personal accusation mind you), and i'm jetting before it does, have fun and thanks for the conversation.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/03/08 08:28 PM)

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#397317 - 06/03/08 08:57 PM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Will be a shame if you drop out as it seems the discussion has potential value. Okay.

To be blunt, I think lots of your answers here are cop outs.

Quote:


Not everyone is arguing that, however there is a big distinction between whether Karate/Kata has has an influence on his training, and whether it's what makes him successful. I am arguing the former, simply that it's had an effect.




So kata has "an effect" and is an "influence on his training". Bold bold statements there. Surprised they weren't preceded by a probably.
The weight of his bag, how he gets back and forth to training, what he had for diner had some effect on him too....Talk about generalising about generalising.

Quote:


You're "allowed" to do whatever you want within the confines of the board I assume, i'm pointing out that no one is going to consider you an authority on Kata training, so why base on your arguments on the faulty assumption that they should? I don't need to defend Kata training to you because as far as we know at this point you are not an authority on it or what it contains




Most people are not authorities. I'm certainly not and neither do I consider myself authority on MMA. I do not assume people should think I am an authority.
I do feel that i've made valid points, put them forward and attempted to back them up - which is as much as one can do on an internet forum.
Also just because someone is an authority does not make them right or infallible.

Quote:


Yep, that they are, just your observations.

I put things in 'probably' because I feel this is more honest than saying definitively, stop trying to psychoanalyze my posting style and second guess what I mean, i'm telling you what I mean right now. You have no idea what my "mentality" is and it's pretty presumptive of you to throw that in.




I just feel you are coping out to some extent. As we agree, just an observation.


Quote:


Nope, but it does imply that anyone who uses these methods and is ok with them probably should take what you have to say on the subject with a grain of salt, as a "no Kata" convert it'd be pretty obvious where your feelings lie right?




Wrong. Just because someone chooses not to use the method, does not mean they think the method is useless.
Perhaps as someone who has attempted to adapt kata to MMA (then decided it was not a good idea) might have some valuable insight.

Quote:


You haven't gone into detail about what you think is there, and I have no idea what you exposure to Karate training or Kata is so it's hard for me to say.




Well you brought up after I listed some areas that I felt kata was lacking in, So you must have some idea. Again I feel this is a bit of an easy answer.

Quote:

Anyway I've pretty much said what I wanted to say, this is quickly going to turn into the typical "you train the wrong way" forum festival at this rate (not a personal accusation mind you), and i'm jetting before it does, have fun and thanks for the conversation.




shame.
Thank you.


Edited by creative (06/03/08 08:58 PM)
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#397318 - 06/04/08 12:13 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: creative]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
20 pages....wow. Hope you guys have time left over to actually train.

Who freakin' CARES if a person uses kata or not? Think about it guys? Admittedly, I used to try and "save the world" from kata, lol. Now I honestly don't give a big fat rat's ass about it one way or the other. And the reason I don't is because I can only worry about ME, not 6 billion other [censored] (ok, and a few others).

I know everyone loves to argue. Fine, knock yourselves out. But just realize one thing; it doesn't matter what someone else does...it matters only what YOU do.

If you feel you get results from kata, great. Do forms until the sun burns out. I don't care. If you feel like kata is a big waste of precious training time (such as I do), fine. Train how you see fit.

In the end, regardless of where you stand on this issue, the least you can do is pressure test yourselves. If you're doing that and are making progress in your own games, isn't that really all that matters?

As I mentioned, I used to be heavily into the anti TMA argument. And while my opinions haven't changed, I just have lost any desire to try and enlighten anyone else to my way of thinking. The way I see it now is, if you get it, great. If you don't get it, great. Not my problem.

Now instead of arguing back and forth about the detriments of each others methods (methods that you probably don't participate in by the way), here's an idea; talk about the POSITIVES that you derive from your chosen practice? Eh? Sound good? No? Didn't think so.

-John

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#397319 - 06/04/08 04:58 AM Re: Lyoto Machida uses karate in mma? [Re: JKogas]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Ah one of those threads again...
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