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#396588 - 05/23/08 06:06 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: harlan]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Tenkan in Aikido is( again this is a very crude explanation!) a 180 degree turn. Tori (the person being attacked) absorbs uke's (the attacker) attack.

It was like Nishio sensei said in the Irimi Nage clip: In Aikido, the force isn't blocked or stopped, its taken in a different way i.e. redirected.

In Tenkan, the movement is taken the direction it is going then redirected. In the below example, Yamada Sensei shows the Tenkan at around 00:10. Uke (attacker) is moving his left arm forward. That is the direction of the attack and his movement. So Yamada Sensei uses Tenkan to keep that movement going (while avoiding the attack) and then using that movement to re-direct the attack. Hope that makes sense!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgc25csUSMA

On a non-Aikido note, found another clip, don't know if this is what you are referring to (sorry I don't know much about karate!):

Keinosuke Eneoda, Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0
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#396589 - 05/23/08 06:50 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hi harlan.

Just as your posted video shows, it isn't just aikido that use the term irimi. I wouldn't get too tied up with aikido's term because their irimi is quite specific and involves a series of movements.

"Irimi" just means "entering" and goes back to both 'ti'/'tode' and Japanese arts such as kenjutsu and jujutsu. Tenkan is really just irimi + a turn. Again, in aikido the concept is more elaborate (I'm not being critical, just that this would be a very crude description of aikido's sequence of moves and their concept).

Your posted video shows 'ura irimi' which is an application of the opening move of naihanchi shodan.

On the other hand saifa uses standard 'irmi' as do other Okinawan kata.

Both occur in the Chinese arts, particularly the internal arts but also some Shaolin. Here's me in around 2000 demonstrating irimi from Hong Yi Xiang's form "Shaolin Peng":


I actually don't know the Chinese term (they aren't big on naming individual applications of forms), but people like Tim Cartmell are experts at it (he is a bagua/taiji practitioner who is also an experienced full-contact fighter in the Orient).

Have a look at our touxing forms - a collection of qin-na 'irimi' of the kind people like Cartmell utilise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiUaVspH3TA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B56GG6bCdVU
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#396590 - 05/23/08 09:14 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: harlan]
chofukainoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/07
Posts: 146
Loc: tokyo, japan
I'm glad you posted about this--i was wondering what other people called it too. In motobu udundi, my sensei has always just called it "ayumi" or walking, along with the other walking techniques. Our really basic one is one diagonal step to enter, one continuing step to unbalance, and then a step at 90 degrees to take down or throw. This is the same walking pattern that shows up in okinawan dance, which has led to a lot of speculation...

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#396591 - 05/23/08 09:36 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: chofukainoa]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thank you, all for replying. Irimi, kuzushi, ayumi...yep...that's it. With or without throws, turns, or strikes...that's it.

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#396592 - 05/23/08 09:49 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: Prizewriter]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Keinosuke Eneoda, Shotokan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v38XQJgK7W0




That is exactly what I was referring to.
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#396593 - 06/12/08 08:47 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

There really is no sense of force. I can't find the term 'irimi' associated with karate on the forums (yet). I suppose this video touches on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrYKn7Rtkwg

What I can understand of this mechanic so far, is it's part of blocking, unbalancing, and redirecting the other person...they just go flying if you get the angles right.


There's a lot more to it than that...

MattJ mentioned "launching" your mass to occupy your opponent's space.... which is a good idea to generally think about, but it can be far more subtle and sophisticated than that. For example, simply stepping into the space that your opponent is about to occupy, just as they're about to place their foot...

There's a reason for all those "wrist manipulations" in Aikido... and equally so for those unrealistic "wrist grabs"... it's all about irimi... enter and walk thru...

And if you get it right, they'll bounce right off you as soon as they try to grab you, with no sense of force on your part.

Why the other day, as I was demonstrating one of those unrealistic wrist grab and manipulation techniques... my wife came in to grab my extended wrist, and at that precise moment, I turned to scowl at one of the kids who was not paying attention, and before I could turn to look at my wife, who happened to be charging into me like a freight train (as always), she bounced right off my wrist, sprained her wrist and fell back 4 feet....

Irimi... kuzushi on contact... all without me even moving or doing anything.



Edited by eyrie (06/12/08 08:53 PM)

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#396594 - 06/12/08 08:50 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: eyrie]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Jokester.

Thanks for popping in and contributing. I will definitely ask to work on this particular aspect of bunkai next week.


Edited by harlan (06/12/08 09:00 PM)

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#396595 - 06/12/08 08:59 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: harlan]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Sorry... I just realized this was asked in the Karate forum and my reply may have come across as somewhat Aikido-centric. Not that it is nor was intended... the concept of irimi, or entering into your opponent/opponent's space is applicable to many arts....

Step and slide... step and slide...

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#396596 - 06/12/08 09:26 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hi Harlan

Something to note is that the key to irimi of the kind pictured above is the "C" back which is central to the internal arts (and aikido, for that matter). However, the opposite is true in the "ura irimi shown by Tim Cartmell here at 0:22 to 0:25: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuP6cApKAD8 (ura irimi is the "inverted" version of normal irimi).

Chofukainoa - what you wrote was very interesting:

Quote:

In motobu udundi, my sensei has always just called it "ayumi" or walking, along with the other walking techniques. Our really basic one is one diagonal step to enter, one continuing step to unbalance, and then a step at 90 degrees to take down or throw.




My internal Chinese martial arts applies the same principle - take a look at the diagonal steps etc. in the links to the forms under my picture of irimi (ayumi) above.

The name "ayumi" literally means, as you have said, "walking" (eg. "ayumi ashi" is the normal step, as opposed to, say, "suri ashi" or sliding step). It is for this reason that I prefer "irimi" to describe the concept of "entering" another's space - it is more specific. Otherwise you are correct in the sense that it is a "walking" movement.

I'd absolutely love to see/train in motobu udundi, btw. It seems like a fascinating art - right up my alley, so to speak.

Eyrie - you said:

Quote:

There's a reason for all those "wrist manipulations" in Aikido... and equally so for those unrealistic "wrist grabs"... it's all about irimi... enter and walk thru...




While I agree with the thrust of your comment, I don't think that wrist grabs are quite so unrealistic as people will popularly say nowadays. If you look at our sparring video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU you'll see lots of wrist grabs applied offensively (to trap, control, throw, etc.). If they are applied offensively then you can use escapes against them defensively. I'm not sure if there are in any in the video, but I apply kote gaeshi, for example, routinely in fast free sparring. I think the reason you don't see grabs in free fighting is the same reason you don't see deflections: People might train them as basics, but never apply them on the floor.

In my experience, you can't do a form or basics and expect the techniques to magically appear in your sparring... That is why we have methods to transition from one to the other (randori, embu - our 2 person forms, etc.).
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#396597 - 06/12/08 09:52 PM Re: Terminology question: 'walking through' [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think Eyrie was being a little 'tongue in cheek' about the wrist grabs. A little site history...;)

thanks, again, guys for adding to the thread.

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